Need advice to create a paladin for NWN:EE OC
Arvia
Member Posts: 2,101
I really like to roleplay my characters and want to create a paladin for my first playthrough in NWN:EE OC, although I know they're relatively weak in NWN.
I'm having difficulties at character creation, because the stats have different influence than in Baldur's Gate. I have read all that I could find, but the conclusion is "it depends".
I want to create a paladin who can tank, heal, use her cleric spells, but who is also able to talk her way through some situations. So, not a moron who relies purely on strength.
I thought maybe:
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 12
WIS 14
INT 10
CHA 16
I will use heavy armor, tower shield, longsword. So, higher DEX would be wasted.
But how much worse would my AC get if I went with DEX 8 and CON 14 instead? Or is CON 12 enough? I don't like to sacrifice HP.
WIS needs to be exactly 14 for the spells. CHA influences the power of some important feats and abilities, I think.
INT can't be lower because I've heard it really influences dialogue options. Or is 10 too little? But what would I sacrifice for INT 12?
STR 12 would be too low I suppose.
I'd like to hear some opinions (and I don't like multiclassing if it can be avoided), especially what the impact would be to lower one stat in favor of another.
Also, after deciding how to distribute my stats, I wonder which skills and feats are adequate for how I want to play, and what is useless. But that would depend on the stat distribution too, I suppose.
Any help, advice, opinions will be very much appreciated. Just not the advice "don't play a paladin" ?.
I'm having difficulties at character creation, because the stats have different influence than in Baldur's Gate. I have read all that I could find, but the conclusion is "it depends".
I want to create a paladin who can tank, heal, use her cleric spells, but who is also able to talk her way through some situations. So, not a moron who relies purely on strength.
I thought maybe:
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 12
WIS 14
INT 10
CHA 16
I will use heavy armor, tower shield, longsword. So, higher DEX would be wasted.
But how much worse would my AC get if I went with DEX 8 and CON 14 instead? Or is CON 12 enough? I don't like to sacrifice HP.
WIS needs to be exactly 14 for the spells. CHA influences the power of some important feats and abilities, I think.
INT can't be lower because I've heard it really influences dialogue options. Or is 10 too little? But what would I sacrifice for INT 12?
STR 12 would be too low I suppose.
I'd like to hear some opinions (and I don't like multiclassing if it can be avoided), especially what the impact would be to lower one stat in favor of another.
Also, after deciding how to distribute my stats, I wonder which skills and feats are adequate for how I want to play, and what is useless. But that would depend on the stat distribution too, I suppose.
Any help, advice, opinions will be very much appreciated. Just not the advice "don't play a paladin" ?.
3
Comments
In the point buy system, I usually dont spend 2 points for 1 stat increase. So I seldomly go higher than 14 in one stat. So if you go 14 in cha, you could get better stats all around.
I really like my con high, so I would go higher on that one. But thats just taste.... I would boost int as well.
Edit: the 8 in dex would only give a -1 to AC, but there are many checks that suffer from the minus on the dex score. So I would go for an even distribution of the stats. Paladins with a meager int dont get that many skill points to compensate.
Paladins are all about buffing. Eagles splendour for the cha boost, and then divine shild etc.
Potions on the side
There is a necklace in HoU that gives cha +6 and extra turn undead. I always plan on wearing that and a heavy plate that gives a cha boost as well. Cha +12 with out buffing helps a lot - and then add the divine favours on top of the that, and your rocking.
Longswords are a great choice. Classic weapon for the paladin
I know you said no multi. But paladins 16, Champion of Torm 20 and fighter 4 for the longsword specialization is just a classic. You could ditch the fighter levels for pure goodness. A more caster oriented paladin is the paladin/cleric.
But if I only go with 14 CHA, won't it make some abilities weaker that depend on Charisma?
So you'd suggest INT 12 CON 14 CHA 14 instead?
You can get to 16 charisma by level 8, as you'll get 1 stat point increase every 4 levels. If you want to increase charisma from 14 to 16 at character creation, you will need to invest 4 points (thus an effective loss of 2 points). Also, constitution is as important as charisma, and in fact more important at lower levels.
If you open for multi, then take Champion of Torm (CoT).
It boost saving throws (ST) every other level and gives some feats - the paladin boost to ST is connected to cha and is given early on. So for the saving throws only just unlock the passive feat as a paladin and then go for CoT... But for for the spell casting take some more levels in paladin.
If you go for cha 14, and int 12, you could invest the skill points in persuade (its a class skill), and the skill check in conversation is often intimidate/persuasion not str/cha. If you go for persuasion +10 you will open a lot. Level up fast by figthing the trash mob, and wait with the conversation until better level.
Boost cha every fourth level when you can.
When I play the OC, I kill the mobs first, and then pick up all the quest rewards later. This way the trash mob xp isnt dilluted. And your persuade skill is boosted, so you can actually persuade somebody
For skills, I thought I'd put points into heal, persuade and discipline at the beginning? Or what about concentration?
The "recommended" gives me "parry" but I doubt I would ever remember to use it, and it goes against my instinct. Heavy armor and shield, yes, but I wouldn't waste an attack for parrying, I'd rather be protected passively and attack.
Other than that, persuade and discipline should be fine. Since you aren't a dedicated spellcaster, you don't really need to invest in concentration a lot. However, if you are multi-classing with cleric or sorcerer (Yes! Sorcerer/Paladin is awesome!), concentration and spellcraft will be your major skills.
Also, I'm a medical doctor in real life, I just can't resist the ability to magically heal someone ?. I will think about it.
Is concentration not needed when I reach the levels to use cleric spells?
...only if the difficult is set to hardcore or higher.
Also, using healing kits renders one flat footed. Potions cure about the same damage as healing kits without the need of point investment.
Great! I'm currently a first year MBBS student, so I'm glad to meet you.
Concentration is needed to prevent spell interruption in mid combat. Since you're a paladin, it's more likely that you'll be pre-buffing before combat, and not using as many spells during the actual combat, unlike regular spellcasters. So concentration is not a top priority, unless you plan to make a more spellcaster type build (like multi-classing with cleric or sorcerer).
Youre in for a treat. Its a a great game. Havent played it in 10 years, but when it comes for iOS I am buying it! Still have the old discs somewhere.
Its 3ed rules, and it makes for a lot of changes.
The stats.
You typically start with a 78 combined point buy stat system. Every fourth level you can upgrade one of your stats by 1. Paladins a recommend cha (and that one makes sense - other wise the recommandations dont make sense imo).
Feat not profiencies
Youre given feats every third level (some classes more), and some class feats at given levels. There replace profiencies and are more variere.
I would take weapon proficiency longsword, power attack (for chests...), cleave, greater cleave, knockdown, imp knockdown, divine shield and the other divine something - and hardiness for an extra hp pr level (take that first). Concentration is for casters - useless
Skills comes every level. Your class and int determines how many. Your class skill takes 1 point to improve and other skills 2 points. As a paladin you dont have many points. As Rik said, pick discipline and persuade since you wanted the talking pally. Parry is useless and needs repair to work in its current state (a pre ee problem). I agree that paladins wouldnt take parry even it worked - its for swashbucklers and blades..
When you reach level 20 (in HotU) you reach epic levels and the feats gets really great. But thats another story.
The 3ed rules or just NWN scales the xp rewards to your level. In BG you could kill a goblin at level 1 or 40 and still get 20 xp. In NWN your level advancement dilluttes the xp yield from low level enemies when you level up - so xp drops on a given enemy when you level up The xp reward from quest dont diminish, so I kill the enemies everywhere I can and wait until last to pick up the quest rewards.
In your case you want to unlock most of the dialogue via the persuade skill - so I would recommend killing the obvious bad guys in the streets and such, and wait with the quest rewards so you maximize your xp - and that way getting a high persuade skill. In many cases you have to persuade npc’s to tell you stuff, so you need the persuade skill in many ways for dialogue).
And dont mind Rik. His every other word is sorceror (he is in general right though and in this case as well - but thats another story..)
I have decided.
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 14
WIS 14
INT 12
CHA 14
Does that sound reasonable?
INT 12 gives me 16 skill pounts to distribute. I've put 4 each in heal, discipline, persuasion, concentration (I've read that it also helps against Taunt)
Taunt is a class skill too, but it doesn't suit my idea of a paladin's honor so I didn't choose it, parry doesn't suit my fighting style, and lore, well, I can pay to identify if it doesn't work.
I'm still not happy with CHA 14, but I waste points to increase it, and if I can get stat points every 4 levels it's okay.
Picking two feats:
Weapon focus longsword, of course.
Second feat recommended is Power Attack, which required for Cleave and all the Divine Whatever later.
But there are some feats only available at 1st level.
So, I thought about picking Luck of Heroes, which gives a +1 bonus to all saving throws. Or is that not as useful as it sounds?
Toughness for extra HP sounds good too, but can be picked the next time.
Is the saving throws bonus worth it?
I should mention that when I play, I will stick to my rules that I use in BG, that means no stealing or looting unless from killed enemies. I don't take stuff from chests, barrels or whatever in public or private places, unless it's in a hostile place like an enemy stronghold or whatever.
So, if there are lots of items that increase stats, skills, saving throws, whatever, that can only be acquired through unlawful acts like stealing, breaking into homes or looting where I have no business, I won't be able to use them.
Edit: And I plan to play on Hardcore Rules. The "normal" setting that deactivates critical hits, attacks of opportunity and such things, and where spells like fireballs don't harm companions, doesn't seem natural to me. Maybe I'll reconsider if I have to reload all the time.
The only thing is the the feats. I would go for toughness over luck - imo its not worth it. Your ST is going to go trough the roof with a High cha paladin (and CoT levels). At level 6 and 9 pick up the paladin feats: divine shield evt. It helps the buffing. Then knockdowns at level 12 amd 15 and cleaves at level 18 and 21 if you must (CoT amd fighter levels in between will advance the feat progression).
You can go by with the no looting policy. You need a magical weapon, and that might require that you loot close by the mini bosses... but you can RP that part.
The reputation system is quite good, and I think you will like it. You can gain good and evil points. And in later campaigns lawfull and chaotic points (is given when Breaking and entering).
But try the game, and see how you like it. The are many pages dedicated to character builds in NWN, and its a World of its own. Its a great game and it only shows how good taste Beamdog has when they pick up games for an ee).
Enjoy
I have read pages on character build, but I guess I'll have to learn for myself what is useful and what isn't.
Thank you, now I think I'm ready to get started, once I finish my current BG run. I wanted to prepare carefully because character creation is a bit more complicated here.
Healing kits don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and potions do. I like healing kits better. They can also be used on companions who are in trouble.
The only thing that worries me is that you can fail your check and the healing kit will still be consumed. I hope that's not very likely to happen.
The problem with that is that they have to stop fighting to drink the potion, and will take attacks of opportunity while drinking. You can heal them with a healing kit with neither of you suffering any AoO's, and the companion or summoned creature can keep fighting and defending. I think like a healer on this issue.
Failing a check only means that any poison or disease is not cured. The hit points are still restored, at d20+skill
I also forgot that I can't order a companion a few steps away to drink a potion, because they do what they want.
I was going to pick the healing skill anyway. Ah, that would be the best skill to have in real life... Heal, and Chaotic Commands.
I have already received some very useful information and advice here, but more is always better
I'm happy to help if I am able! The fact that the NWN OC is designed so simply leaves character design really open for everyone. You aren't really needing to push certain aspects like AC or AB to their absolute limits since you won't really find any foes that require such builds. But since you're trying to build what I'd call an "all around" character, I can hopefully offer some build advice.
First and foremost, while I try to optimize every character, I also try to avoid leaving any stat at 8, both for RP purposes and because I like avoiding even minor penalties if I can help it. At the same time I am willing to make certain class combo decisions that might seem questionable for RP purposes without reading the character bio. I tend to try and mitigate a build's weaknesses where I can.
With all that said, I am going to assume you want this character to be a single-classed Paladin. I know some people aren't keen on multi-classing.
The starting stats you mentioned in one of your later posts in this topic were how I would start the character. Remember that starting a stat above 14 is more expensive and you can always raise those stats later when leveling. For the most part though, you're going to see stat gains through gear. You also don't need feats like Luck of Heroes or Strong Soul as a Paladin due to your Divine Grace feat that adds your CHA bonus to all your saves.
To start with:
Starting Stats: STR: 14, DEX: 10, CON: 14, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA:14
Skills: Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Persuade - I went with these skills to fit the concept you seemed to want. To keep it simple I just maxed them but it probably wouldn.t hurt too much to steal 3 points from concentration, heal and persuade if you want to start raising another skill post level 20.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Knockdown - I went with these because weapon focus early on is helpful and I find knockdown sooner, rather than later can be really useful in combat if your AB is good enough.
lvl01: Paladin 01 - Weapon Focus (Longsword), Knockdown
lvl02: Paladin 02 -
lvl03: Paladin 03 - Power Attack
lvl04: Paladin 04 - +1 STR
lvl05: Paladin 05 -
lvl06: Paladin 06 - Extra Turning
lvl07: Paladin 07 -
lvl08: Paladin 08 - +1 STR
lvl09: Paladin 09 - Divine Shield
lvl10: Paladin 10 -
lvl11: Paladin 11 -
lvl12: Paladin 12 - +1 CHA, Divine Might
lvl13: Paladin 13 -
lvl14: Paladin 14 -
lvl15: Paladin 15 - Improved Critical (Longsword)
lvl16: Paladin 16 - +1CHA
lvl17: Paladin 17 -
lvl18: Paladin 18 - Lightning Reflexes
lvl19: Paladin 19 -
lvl20: Paladin 20 - +1 STR
Final Stats (at 20): STR: 17, DEX: 10, CON: 14, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA:16
For the OC's and any RP-centric PW, this build should be fine. It's single classed and not complicated. You'll have the full array of Paladin spells, max BAB, maxed out skill in Heal (because lets face it, even as a single class Paladin you aren't going to have enough spells to heal too often with magic, and you'll probably more benefit from your buff spells for yourself and any companions), and maxed out Persuade for any dialogue options. In all honesty you probably only need about 15 persuade to cover just about everything just because of your natural CHA and likely any CHA bonuses you get from items.
Speaking of items... there's a few common items in the OC to look out for. Nymph Cloaks provide +CHA bonuses. The more you can get, the more your saves will improve and the more powerful and longer lasting your Divine Shield and Divine Might feats will be. If you can snag a Nymph Cloak +4 in the later OC, and stack it with your Aura of Glory and Eagle's Splendor spells, you could potentially get the max of +12 to your CHA (eagle's splendor has a bit of rng being 1d4+1)
The Lightning Reflexes feat I chose to mitigate the weaker Reflex save the Paladin has. With that said, this feat is optional and could potentially be replaced with a feat more to your liking.
Divine Shield will supplement your AC when necessary just as Divine Might will add considerable damage to your attacks. The reason I didn't take the pre-reqs sooner is primarily because at higher levels your cha will be higher from leveling points and gear, thus allowing you to make better use of them. With a max of +12 CHA bonus (from items/buffs) on top of your base 16, that's a 28 CHA granting you 12 rounds of +9 AC and +9 dmg from these feats.
I'd recommend using the Heal skill on allies to keep them healthy rather than spells. As a Cleric you'd have enough to go around casting heals but as a Paladin your magic is much more limited and better served buffing yourself and your allies. Your high Heal skill will recover more HP than any of your spells anyway. You should probably save your Lay on Hands skill for yourself as an emergency heal if things get rough.
Fully self buffed, and with only normal plate, a normal tower shield, and a normal longsword, this build can have an AC of 28, an AB of 37 and potentially hits for 1d8+5, +4 slashing, +1 physical, +5 magical, +7 divine. That's around 1d8+22 per hit at level 20 (when fully buffed). Your saves when fully self buffed like this would be: 22/16/16 which is quite good considering no magical gear whatsoever.
Obviously magical armor and weapons will be great boons to a Paladin. Items boosting AB, AC, STR and CHA are priorities. Your CHA will take care of your saves, but use what you find. I hope you find all this at least somewhat useful, and even if you don't use the build as presented, it can hopefully inspire something that fits perfectly for your needs.
I went with that stat distribution, also Weapon Focus Longsword, but still picked toughness as the other feat, because of the extra HP. I'm not used to special attacks that need to be selected and will probably forget to use them in combat.
But I seem to be doing something wrong. I always get killed in the Peninsula District, when I enter the sewers. There are too many, and I can't draw them out because they don't follow. I also can't afford more healing kits or potions. I have AC 20 with a half plate and tower shield. Is that so bad for the beginning of the game?
I will probably have to reconsider my "don't take things out of chests" rule at least for the academy, because I suppose things were put there exactly for the purpose of getting some basic supplies in the beginning. Of course I took the sword from my own room, but I should probably roleplay that the other chests were just stored supplies for everybody to use once the academy was attacked, not someone else's property.
I also can't hire a companion yet. I have spent the money that Aribeth gave me on the tower shield, not on hiring a rogue who runs off on his own and then needs my supplies to patch him up.
As for tactics every time you defeat a bunch of enemies you should rest to regenerate your health. I'm not sure if you already do this but I might as well mention it for the possibility that you don't do this.
In the Peninsula District there are tough "boss" type characters, the ones who are bald and carry long swords. Get your henchmen to tank them. Your henchmen will always return to life when they get killed so having them take the damage is not an issue.
I don't agree with the character stats and feats recommended to you but that is just me. I beat the OC with my own Paladin on the highest difficulty and never had to use a potion or heal kit while in battle.
If killing enemies in the Peninsula District is too hard go to the Beggar's Nest. There you will fight zombies, enemies that are really easy to kill.
If you take Linu, you might get lucky and have her do some healing, but then again, she might start trying to cast some irrelevant buff during combat and get killed by attack of opportunity. I really don't like spellcasting companions at all for that reason. I still prefer Tomi, and he can be really good in combat if you can get aggro, because he gets sneak attacks.
It sounds like the fights you're having trouble with are the gang leaders. Those are mini-bosses. If you can, try to get at least one more level before you go up against them. I don't usually have too much trouble with them, but I'm usually playing a cleric or a druid with summoned animals and animal companion in addition to Tomi. Gang leaders are very dangerous, and they not only have really high hit points, they have sneak attacks, so you can't afford to fight any lesser minions with a gang leader around - you have to attack the gang leader, or you'll likely get sneak attacked to death.
There's a gang leader down in the sewers that you've found. He has a key you might need to get into the prison. There's another gang leader outside, not far from the sewer entrance. There's a third one on the main floor of the prison with a swarm of minions around him. You have to be careful from what side you approach that one. There are at least two more down on the lower floors of the prison, and there will be two sorcerers down there who can fireball you to death, so you're going to need elemental protection if you can get it. Clerics, druids, and even mages have it so much easier in these early fights!
AC 20 is about the best you would be able to get this early in the game, but it wasn't worth giving up a companion. Like I said, you're going to need that extra damage output, especially since you're playing a class with no buff spells early on.
Trying to run from combat has limited value in this game. Sometimes I try to fall back to a more defensible area, but it's usually better to stand and fight. In some situations, you can use the portal stone Aribeth gave you to teleport out of trouble.
It's been a while since I tried being a low level paladin in NWN. I remember noticing it was a *lot* harder than being a cleric. Starting as a paladin is almost like increasing the difficulty, sadly. If it starts to be no fun for you, you might consider turning the difficulty slider to "normal" while you're getting to know it.
Combat in NWN is more action oriented and character build oriented than tactical. There will be many mobs of enemies. Also, as per the usual D&D trope, the beginning is hardest. Once your character finally reaches high level, combat will get much easier in most cases.
There's a lot of good roleplay and story content in the game if you can get the hang of the combat, and eventually years worth of very good user-generated content is available.
I guess I'll have to restart again and spend the money on Tomi instead.
I'll try another 5 times and then slide down the difficulty if it doesn't work. And I guess I'll just run around a bit longer killing usual escaped prisoners to reach level 4 before I enter the sewers again.
As others have suggested, trying a different area first is probably a good idea. I nearly always start with Beggar's Nest. Also, you should be taking anything and everything that isn't nailed down
Another tip, don't be stingy with potions or scrolls you may have. A Barkskin potion and Cat's Grace potion are going to give you 4 to 5 more AC for a while. A Bless and Aid potion will give you +2 AB for fair amount of time as well.
I'm just going to make an exception for the academy when I restart and take the healing kit and potions from the chests, roleplaying that I have the permission to get supplies there.
I won't steal, and I won't loot from the corpses killed by the prisoners. I loot from killed enemies, of course. But if I need to grab everything that isn't nailed down, I might as well play a barbarian, not a paladin. If that's a necessity to survive, then it's not my game.
I started with the Peninsula District because Aribeth suggested it, and that girl who asked for help right in front the hall of justice. It seemed a priority.
I think you're going to need to adjust your interpretation of Lawful Good if you want to have a reasonably good time in the NWN OC. Unlike PnP D&D, NWN is a video game and it is designed with the player using the items they put into the game.
Look at it this way... if your allies were slain, you aren't honoring them by leaving all their gear on their corpse to rot. They'd want you to use whatever they had to defeat the evil that felled them and perhaps exact some justice in their name. You are not serving the greater good by hamstringing your ability to fight the forces of evil. I'm not saying you have to steal. If a chest or closet is locked. Don't bash it, leave it be. But if it isn't locked, it should seriously be fair game.
NWN is a video game. In the OC's here is no DM to reward you with bonus xp or items for exemplary roleplay. A persistent world with active DM's might serve that type of play, but the default OC's will not.
Its trial and error.
When I start, I run through the academy. Stop by the guy who levels you up, proceed to the exit and exit... your level 3 without much hassle. Then I go back and help clean up the place - and I am half ways to level 4.
(It can be RP’d the way, that rush for the water havian animals - or whats their name), and then when you see the animals teleport, secure the premises. Its Aribeths orders...
I then pick up the easy prisoners in the peninsula, then head for the beggars nest to pick up the slow zombies. I pick up level 4 and perhaps level 5. Then I can try a miniboss..
Use the stone of recall often. Heal in the temple, and then walk back to the battle.
I play a melee guy/girl all the time, but I take the barbarian hencman many times. Its double the damage if I need it.
Actually I switch between the henchmen all the time. Need a thief, pick a thief - need brute force, pick a monk or barbarian. Its not a henchman, its a swiss army knife of henchmens. The henchmen are mercenaries, and not your friends. You have hired them, and they have no qualms about being left behind.
In all, I just go back to the temple all the time, do some small advancements and then returner where I left from with a new henchman or full health when I need to.
I've never played PnP (unfortunately) and I don't play in persistent worlds, either. I'm not playing this way to get roleplaying XP or rewards. I play the way that feels right to me, and make decisions according to what I would really do.
I do that in the Baldur's Gate games all the time, and it works fine, although there are some quests and items that I don't get.
Although what you say about the corpses sounds reasonable. If I could ask them, they would probably say "Take my things and continue where I couldn't". Especially things like potions or weapons, if the enemy might use it otherwise.
Difficult.
@BelgarathMTH , as a kindred spirit in issues of ethics and conscience, I'd very much appreciate to hear your thoughts on this.
I can totally understand and respect your style of play. I just wanted to warn you that the NWN OC is less conducive to that style.
At the very least don't feel bad about taking fallen allies items. As you said "Take my things and continue where I couldn't" is a likely stance for npc allies to hold. I know I would feel that way if I were the fallen. Take my mace and pop the bastard who took me down with it! You're also keeping those items out of the hands of enemies who might linger behind or looters who may come later.
I would also say dont feel bad about looting anything and everything in enemy strongholds. They are bad guys and anything you take from them is something they can't use to hurt the innocent.
Directive 2. Protect the innocent.
Directive 3. Uphold the law.
It's Robopaladin. Coming to a campaign near you.