What are your thoughts on A Hunger/Thirst/Fatigue for online servers?

Wall3t

So ive been on a quest to try and see just what peoples thoughts were on a hunger/thirst/Fatigue system. I've been considering it as an option for my Online Frontier Server, but not utilizing every part like fatigue but making it important to eat or drink.

After having asked alot of people across several closed and public neverwinter groups, it seems alot are very negative about it even existing! I want to know what people here think of the idea. Do you think its a great idea, bad idea, or undecided?

New Edit

Okay thanks for everyones feedback! I plan to keep this going as long as I can, just so everyone can say what they want. im starting to get a seemingly good idea what the community has to say and for those of you who might be interested in playing on a server like this you are welcome to come check out my W.I.P of my Steampunk Server:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/72979/pw-a-steampunk-game-world-development-the-realm-of-midland#latest

FreshLemonBun

It really depends on the system. They can be good for several reasons, like immersion through actuation of character upkeep, and as resource management. The issue is often that in a pw the character can easily return to town (which has infinite resources) and never has to manage resources for a long adventure. Another issue is that servers with such systems usually don't really base it on existing rules or even medical limits, and they often require lots of clicking and binging on resources. In a sense those systems often completely undermine themselves and the presumed intent behind why you would even want such a system in the first place. It has to make sense.

Nic_Mercy

In theory the system seems cool and immersive.

In practice, servers that implement such systems often also make the items necessary to combat those states prohibitively expensive for new characters and/or do not provide enough reliable means of earning gold to pay for them AND to accumulate gold besides for other things like gear. The penalties of hunger/thirst/fatigue also tend to be too severe, especially on low level characters to whom such penalties can be devastating.

Servers that implement such systems often (in my experience anyways) also have other restrictions such as not sharing items from one character to another (no twinking your alts), restrictions on resting that make playing spellcasters very unfun, and generally make gameplay unfun (for me at least) in a myriad of ways just for the sake of "realism".

As I said, in theory such systems seem cool and immersive, but I have yet to see a PW implement them in a way that doesn't feel punitive and punishing.

Wall3t

Thanks for the feeback!

in my own personal experiences ive always considered H/T/F as will not and will refuse to play with, but getting into game development here... ive sorta changed my mind. Ive realized that the system really exists purely on principle at this point.

What i mean by this is ive come to realize as ive created my own world, how important it was for me to tell me a story through actions and visuals. Hunger and Thirst plays into the world in how important it is to people of this world. Famine strikes the countryside and everyone should feel it in some way or another.

While some people just don't care for that, i think of it as roleplaying a story out. It can be abit artsy for me to say that, but thats just how ive come to see it. Also i know of at least one really good H/T/F system that isnt intrusive, or annoying to gameplay. I dont think its entirely bad as long as it's done in a good balance, if the server reflects a world of famine then have merchants sell dry foods, or put animals in the environment, or create traveling merchants.

Wall3t

Also perhaps its come to my attention here, but that i dont think this was a widely discussed topic for awhile as to whether if H/T/F is or was a good idea or not.

Maybe i missed a few topics or so, but based on some peoples experiences it as if Builders like myself NEVER bothered to ask: what do players really want? Im a player too so i know what *I* want in a server, a challenge! but never ever should i think a challenge = impossible to progress. If H/T/F isnt really such a bad idea, maybe its time we talked about how it could be improved.

PsicoVic

One of the things I liked about FNV and Fo4 was the "survival mode". So it would be welcome.

JFK

Enjoyment in a game arises when a player overcomes something. It's that simple. That something can be a monster, a trap, or starvation. I think the key is to make the effects interesting, preventable, and solvable (This doesn't apply only to H/T/F, if you think about it). So hunger, for example is preventable if you remember to get food, and food then must be available. Hunger is solvable for the same reason, you can get food and eat it. But part of the fun of fighting and defeating a monster is that a monster is (one hopes) interesting. Thus, hunger and it's effects ought to be interesting as well. Interesting, but not overwhelming. Make finding food in the wild, identifying it as edible, preparing it -- make that interesting, but not so time consuming that people get frustrated. Nobody needs a Search check to find apples growing on a tree. But feeling hungry, and remembering an old abandoned orchard lies just outside the ruins you're heading for, so you veer through it and pluck down a few ripe apples, eat one and save the rest in your pack, before turning back toward the ruins … that doesn't interfere with the 'adventure'. That IS part of the adventure.
Some ideas are to have plenty of free growing things at the right seasons, but importantly, have the edible when green, with bad effects possible, have the rotten when fallen, with ill effects, and have those qualities easy to recognize, using apples to continue the example.

Anyway, I've likely written too much already.

My final word is a thing I learned from tabletop DMing decades ago: You can only offer players your version of a game. If you try to bend your game to match their desires exactly, you will likely fade; if you manage it, they'll likely fade anyway because your heart won't be in it.

JFK

ShadowM

I think the core idea is good. I think the implementation is where a lot of frustration comes into play with most PW / adventures, partly because of expectations/vision of the PC and the creators can vary/differ from a little to a lot. I agree with what JFK has said above.

ElysianEchoes

I feel like such a system is about the same as roleplaying needing to go to the bathroom or bathe. Some details just aren't necessary, and detract from fun.

Wall3t

ElysianEchoes wrote: »

I feel like such a system is about the same as roleplaying needing to go to the bathroom or bathe. Some details just aren't necessary, and detract from fun.

I agree to a point here until I disagree. This here is a side feature of my server, its a bathouse. no you are not required to bathe (and you wont suffer choosing not to either) however, choosing to spend some of your gold on "taking a bath" grants you buffs to your character that will last until you rest. I consider this as a nice side-feature that doesnt have to be taken out of context. Its simple, it's not required which is where i draw the line at, it's clean, and it works.

Wall3t

Also just something to consider here dming for tabletop compared to never winter are very different. I'll take it into consideration but learning to bend a game to match an audience is fine such as catching a role playing group for example.

I won't get too much into it, but roleplay is going to be my target for the server, with that said I don't have plans to use fatigue as a system as I can't find anything out there that's fair. I also like being able to rest whenever I want.

FreshLemonBun

Do note there are popular games that revolve around these sorts of mechanics. Like permadeath it is unpopular but also a standard rpg feature, and yet also a main feature in some games where it is the biggest draw. These are not tedious features but once again it has to make sense, and your audience has to "buy in" to that kind of game.

What you want to avoid is where to satisfy the system it makes the chatlog look like this:

'rp' server wrote:

*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*drinks*
*eats*
*eats*
*eats*
*eats*

You can refer to any number of games from rpg retro classics like Eye of the Beholder, to modern rpg like Darkest Dungeon, to modern survival rpg like Atlas, to modern survival games like The Long Dark. It's largely a solved problem if you look around at examples beyond pw implementations.

Wall3t

Thanks for all the feeback so far everyone!

So the best H/T/F system i can publicly find, is this one here:

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/script/hunger-thirst-and-fatigue-system

The short summary of this one is it has everything i would look for, regarding H/T/F system's.

it includes a casual H/T/F system which as long as you have food, and drinks in your inventory will auto select the items when your character becomes hungry or thirsty.

The system is less intrusive than most other systems, instead of a countdown bar its occasional popups and is easily modifiable (IE: you can set the intervals in how long someone can go, until they eat/sleep/or drink)

definitely worth taking a look at for anyone interested.

JFK

On the 'like using the bathroom' note, I see a slight difference between that and eating/drinking. Mainly, the former is (usually) a solitary matter that presents few catalysts for RP; the latter however is often a social activity, and thus can foster roleplaying. I view H/T/F as the grain of sand in an oyster. Sure, it may be an irritant, but it can produce the pearl occasionally too.



JFK

TarotRedhand

FWIW If such a system is implemented then in my opinion it should only really be for certain areas of a pw and not global to the whole world. By this I mean to me it would make sense if the pw has a large desert area and no oasis or village/encampments for (game) miles. Otherwise it is just a pita in lands with plenty of flowing water and abundant game and edible plants.

Just my 2 cents worth.

TR

FreshLemonBun

I am with Tarot on restricting the countdown to certain areas, as I said it has to make sense. In cases where a character is at an inn or city the system should be suspended and accounted for by the general upkeep costs. If you still want some kind of tax you can refer to the dmg upkeep rules for inspiration, an inn room for example could include those costs and bypass the need for food and drink.

Wall3t

Thats a tall order to do when every H/T/F system is based on a module wide idea, unless TR has a way to do it or if someone has one like that I'd say thats a no go, but it is definitely an idea to consider.

FreshLemonBun

I don't see why it would be difficult. If it ticks then you do the checks to suspend or proceed. The checks depend on what you're doing exactly, there are a number of ways you could do this, but for a very simple example consider areas with true/false variables.

Wall3t

If you have a way to do it, then I say go for it! If you feel like sharing how simple it is then even better!

FreshLemonBun

Well you could do it simply with an if statement and check a variable for example on the area the pc is in with GetArea and GetLocalInt.

Wall3t

If I knew how i wouldnt even be here asking peoples thoughts on it

FreshLemonBun

Well if you don't know how to script something like that it might be tricky to explain how to edit any of those systems without first looking at how those other systems go about it.

Lets make some assumptions:

1. The system updates on the module heartbeat script.
2. It loops through the players and adjusts food values.
3. You give wild areas a variable called "wild" and set it to 1, leaving other areas alone.
4. Players have a "food" variable and are hungry when it is 0.
5. Every tick of the heartbeat reduces the value by 1 point if and only if the area is wild.
6. Eating food increases the value by 5000 points.

The part of the heartbeat script within the player loop will look something like this.

object oPC = GetFirstPC();
while (GetIsObjectValid(oPC))
{
	if (GetLocalInt(GetArea(oPC), "wild") == 1)
	{
		int nFood = GetLocalInt(oPC, "food");
		nFood = nFood - 1;
		if (nFood < 0)
		{
			nFood = 0;
		}
		SetLocalInt(oPC, "food", nFood);
	}
	oPC = GetNextPC();
}

So in this barebones hypothetical example script it only reduces the food resource variable when the player is in the wild. Each system implementation will probably differ but at some point they have to interact with the character which is where you can do the check.

Wall3t

Okay i still plan to keep this going, but thanks so far for everyone who has participated and commented. What I have, or will be doing, is adding a middle ground for Hunger and Thirst where its not a requirement but will still be a part of the game and its story and I'll have spider661's system to thank for this.

The idea is going to be that eating or drinking will provide benefits like energy (IE health boosts, etc) to food or drinks you carry with you, find, or purchase. That system is quite easy to add new items to so it's going to be a cake walk going forward

Nic_Mercy

Wall3t wrote: »

Okay i still plan to keep this going, but thanks so far for everyone who has participated and commented. What I have, or will be doing, is adding a middle ground for Hunger and Thirst where its not a requirement but will still be a part of the game and its story and I'll have spider661's system to thank for this.

The idea is going to be that eating or drinking will provide benefits like energy (IE health boosts, etc) to food or drinks you carry with you, find, or purchase. That system is quite easy to add new items to so it's going to be a cake walk going forward

I like a system where eating/drinking buffs you if you decide to engage with it rather than penalizes you if you don't. It incentivizes you to engage with the system but doesn't screw you over if you can't be bothered with it. I'd like to think many players would engage in such a system happily because its a bonus you can chase rather than a penalty you're trying to dodge.