Angurvadal - raise strenght effect
Daevelon
Member Posts: 605
Hi everyone, probably a stupid question but i don't remember if strength value is lowered to 22 while using Angurvadal +5 with a character having 23+ strength or not.
Thank you
Thank you
0
Comments
The exceptions to this rule? The cleric holy symbols grant +1 strength, and some cleric spells grant +N strength. These apply to your base strength, or whatever other items/effects have changed that to. For example, if you equip Angurvadal for strength 22 and then use the Headband of the Devout (Righteous Might) for +3 strength, you end up with strength 25.
some day i have to test it...:)
And also when a str spell expires and 2 items are equipped.
The game remembers the order they were equipped or some other way is used?
Actually in more then 15 years i never faced a similar situation, and i don't think that is likely it happens, but i am curious about it and i can not test it for some days as i am not at home.
By the way it is possible that it actually happens, like in the case a toon equips angurvadal+5 for the immunity to level drain and then crom to max str, then save and reload.
Nothing that can not be easily fixed equuipping again the weapons, but the player has to be aware if it is needed.
about how the thing is implemented in the game i think that there is a clear difference between an item/spell/whatever that set something to a certain value, like the belt that set the str to 19, and an item/spell/whatever that increase an existing thing of a certain value, like DuHM that rise Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity by 1 point for every 3 levels of the caster.
once that difference is understood, and the spells having priority over items for the things that set value (the things that increase it stack together, but are overridden by something that set applied after them, cleric ring excluded) the player can make his choice.
so a cleric that has natural str of 15 (or whatever value, even superior to 19) gets 19 str from the belt that ribals sell as long as the belt is equipped.
but the way he buffs after equipping the belt, the order he cast the spells is important.
if he cast duhm and righteous magic, that give the same str increasing bonus of duhm and he is lev 10, so each spell gives +3str he ends with 19(belt) +3(duhm) +3(RM) = 25 str.
but then if he cast holy power, that give fighter like thac0 and set the str to 18.00, his 25 str is overridden and he ends with 18.00 str (the dex and con bonuses, increasded hp and fighter like thac0 are not overridden).
if the same cleric with the same belt change the order of his buffing spells he gets different results, with the best option being HP -> RM -> DUHM (that is better casted as last, but only cause has a lower duration)
now the result is:
18.00 (HP that overrides the belt) + 3 RM +3 DUHM= 24 str (with kai like effect and fighter like thac0)
if the same cleric is a multi FC, so does not need the thac0 boost from HP, having already fighter thac0, he can choose to avoid HP in his buffing sequence, so he gets 25 str (19 from belt +3 +3) or cast it getting 24 str but 10 more hp that are the other bonus he gets from HP.
the system is a little complicated, but has advantages compared to a system that make every item and spell increase the starting value of a certain amount.
1. not overrolled and minmaxed toons have a chance, while the overrolled and minmaxed ones can not reach too high and unbalancng values.
2. it is not possible to stack many items that give a str increase instead of setting str on fighter types with good natural str to have them max it. in bg2 there are 4 belts, 1 pair of gauntlets, and at least 2 weapons (crom excluded) that affect str, so, if those items would increase str instead of set it, it would be possible to have at least 2 fighters with 25 str, add anomen and aerie to the party and then you have 4/5 of the party at 25 str, 3 of them with a good apr, 2 of them with fighter hla end game, that alone is 280 more damage/round compared to fighters without str damage bonus, without talking of the ridiculous thac0 high level fighters can get with the +7 from str on top of their natural one already made better by weapons enchantment, items and pips.
3. It would also make crom obsolete as with good base str would be better in almost every case to have 3 increasing items that you use to craft it instead of giving them to cromwell and getting the hammer.
if i am not wrong items revision make all the str items work like that, and even if i never used that mod so i lack of a specific experience about it i think that it is not a good implementation and i prefer the way the vanilla items work.
it is a personal taste, and others are free to have different opinions, but i like more the vanilla way where overrolling and minmaxing them give an advantage, but only to a certain extent, and not doing it don't completely screw a toon.
EDIT: what i would like is that in the case more things set a certain value are used the maximum set value would be used, at least for the items, would be used instead of the last applied.
i am fine about the spells overridding items as the other way clerics would be too much at advantage as could easily have 25 str and fighter like thac0 too soon and with less spells, now they have to wait lev 12 to pull out 25 str, even if at high level they can have it with only HP and RM, making DUHM redundant if not for the con and dex bonus, but it is balanced by the low apr and in case of multi RC or FC by the slow progression of a multi class.
I feel like I need a flow-diagram to get a handle on how all this works...
2 cleric spells, RM and DUHM, give an increase of a certain level depending value to the str the toon has at the moment the spells are cast. they stack together and with the existing str, but are overridden if after a spell that set the str is used, they are not overridden afaik by equipping items, but now i can not test it.
the ring a cleric get at a certain level always gives +1 str, afaik is not overridden by anything.
so
1. to cast a spell that set str overrides the str enhancing items, wether they are equipped before or after the spell is cast
2. the clerical spells that rise str of a certain amount stack on top of it, but are wasted as soon as a new spell that set str, must be the last ones in the buffing sequence
3. the ring always gives +1 wether items or spells are used to modify str, no need to equip it at a certain moment of the buffing sequence.
But what happens if you reequip the belt (or Angurdaval) ? Does it overwrite the Holy Power spell ? I think it shouldn't.
So, basicaly, items/spells that "set" strength behave like this:
- apparel "setting" strength applies only the most recent equipped. Logical from a engine point of view, and also from a gaming perspective: after all, even though I don't see why, you might want to "reset" your strength to 19 by equiping the belt even though you were already wielding Angurdaval (22STR)
- spells that "set" strength (only Holy Power comes to mind) overwrites gear, and given the way the spell works and is described, it makes sense that even apparel equiped afterwards do not overwrite the spell until it expires.
Now, to complicate things: the polymorph spells. When you change form, your new form as a "set" strength, that overwrites gear. You have to re-equip your STR-setting equipment to gain its effects back. In fact, you have to reequip almost every gear you wear for their effects to apply, which is a bit of a PITA when you run a "transformer" build (I have, it's so much fun. Love it. Anyway...)
Sadly, changing forms also makes you lose the benefits from strength potions or DuHM if cast/gulped beforehand.
What if you have a cleric/mage, casting Holy Power and then transforming say in spider form (16 STR). Do you get the new strength from your form, or do you retain 18/00 from the spell ?
EDIT : @gorgonzola mostly answered all of the above while I was writing this
if i am not wrong there is also a spell with aoe, that you can use to rise the str to the whole party, but then it is important to move the toons that have better str outside the aoe before it is cast. now i am not at home and i can not check it and i can't remember the name.
also there is no reason to equip a belt that gives 19 if you are using angurvadal, but you can have the belt and then equip the sword or other ones depending on the situation. then if you save and reload i am not sure of what happens, does the game remember that you equipped the sword after the belt or maybe you end with 19 str? now i can not test it.
and if you equip the gauntlets that give 18.00, then a sword but you happen to need a crushing weapon and equip the mauler's harm because it is the only one available you have to remember to unequip and equip again the gauntlets to go in battle with 18 instead of 18.00
is not very likely, but there are situations in which you possibly loose str if you are not aware of how the whole thing work.
and polymorphing is an other case, when i use my mid level combo with aerie and the cloak of sewers, good apr and regeneration make her really strong that way in troll form, i have to apply duhm and other buffs using a sequencer after polymorphing and remember to re equip items after she take back the usual form. the same is true when she at high levels transforms herself in a golem for 4d10 damage (with the kai from RM and FoA in OH
it is really important to understand as the str buffs work in some advanced uses of the game...
wait what ? which item grants Kai ? I don't remember this one :O
Is one of the reasons to play CT.
Afaik no item grant a permanent kai.