Rolling Barbarian Dwarf after all

Soido

While I am rolling for my 91 dice (perfect roll for the build)

After measuring pros and cons of different classes I decided to do a dwarf barbarian. Not the best class out there but suits my playstyle the best.

1. Speed - I just need to walk fast and reveal maps fast. Entirely personal preference
2. Dwarf - the +2 Save against everything complements the Barbarian rage very nicely. On top of that you get "shorty" bonus + 5 Saves. Activate Rage adds another + 2 Save for a total + 9 Save (actually + 7 see edit below) from Level 1. And as a fighter class, the saves get better and better with leveling up
3. Weapon specialization - a pure class, 17 pips to distribute. 3 will be for Dual Wielding, and I am left with whopping 14 pips (7 weapons - Flails, Hammers, Maces, Long Swords, Scimitars, Axes, Katanas). That is tremendous variety and the core of the build.
4. Tons of HP

EDIT: The game imposes a limit of up to + 5 max from racial bonus Saves. So any shorty bonus above Constitution 13 is disregarded. So the total bonus is + 7 (5 from shorty at Constitution 19 and 2 from Rage). I don't like this because is not cool losing the racial bonus but I guess a + 9 becomes too powerful so they decided to cut the racial bonus to a max + 5. Well, + 5 is still better than + 0 for the Half-Orcs.

Danacm

The common knowledge says the berserker kit is better, well, cause the grandmastery in weapons and immunity to imprisonement while in rage. But beleive me, barbarian is a very well rounded character, i like more weapons than grandmastery and physical resistant from lvl 11 is also good addition to the d12 hp.
In bgee beware of durlags tower without thief.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Chronicler

Danacm wrote: »

The common knowledge says the berserker kit is better, well, cause the grandmastery in weapons and immunity to imprisonement while in rage. But beleive me, barbarian is a very well rounded character, i like more weapons than grandmastery and physical resistant from lvl 11 is also good addition to the d12 hp.
In bgee beware of durlags tower without thief.

I used to get caught up on the fact that the Barbarian's innate physical resistance isn't as strong as Armor of Faith.

What the description of Armor of Faith doesn't tell you, though, is that it stops scaling past level 20 (as does almost every spell in the game). So at Caster Level 20 Armor of Faith will provide 25% resistance, in comparison to the Barbarians 20%.

It's actually not that big a difference, and I'd think it would be more than compensated by the fact that the barbarian's resistance is active always and can never be dispelled.

Soido

In BGEE toe to toe the berserker does look stronger mainly due to his full plate armor and AC bonus.

In BGEE2 though these advantages should diminish and it might turn out a pure class barbarian to better a pure class berserker though maybe only slightly. As far as I have read here and there, the AC becomes negligible later on and you will get hit often regardless. So the AC sacrifice initially of the barbarian is well justified later and damage resistances start to play important role.

But the weapon proficiencies rock. Note that a berserker could also allow for 7 proficiencies, it is not mandatory to go all the way to grand mastery in either of them.

So with a berserker you are choosing a class which will sacrifice his main utility eventually - the AC becomes useless and grand mastery. And what is left out of it then ? Maybe only the better type of rage.

On the other hand a barbarian only keeps getting better and better and fully utilized.

I sometimes think that 7 proficiencies is too much and redundant, I mean flails, hammers, and maces are all blunt weapons. But I would hate coming across some awesome weapon and being sorry that I cannot use it properly.

kansasbarbarian

I just started a Dwarf barbarian run myself. Dual wielding maces. Got an astounding 94 roll , only downside was the 18/17 strength. Using all tomes on him. Party consists of Kagain, Yeslick, Montauron, and Xzar. Having a blast.

Soido

If you were soloing then the 18/17 roll is not good at all. Because as a solo low defense character you cannot afford to miss too much early on.

But rage is your friend and activating it at the tough battles eliminates the problem of 18/17 strength immediately. Something the Berserker cannot say.

Plus you have a party. I think Barbarian shines with a party rather than solo because he is a tactical warrior. Let Kagain tank the front row and you send the barbarian to flank your enemies. Nothing worse than being flanked by a raging barbarian. An isolated mage ? An isolated archer ? Nobody is outside his reach.

BelgarathMTH

Soido wrote: »

In BGEE toe to toe the berserker does look stronger mainly due to his full plate armor and AC bonus.

In BGEE2 though these advantages should diminish and it might turn out a pure class barbarian to better a pure class berserker though maybe only slightly. As far as I have read here and there, the AC becomes negligible later on and you will get hit often regardless. So the AC sacrifice initially of the barbarian is well justified later and damage resistances start to play important role.
...

So with a berserker you are choosing a class which will sacrifice his main utility eventually - the AC becomes useless and grand mastery. And what is left out of it then ? Maybe only the better type of rage.

On the other hand a barbarian only keeps getting better and better and fully utilized.

Immunity to Imprisonment is huge in BG2. I always choose berserker over barbarian for that one reason alone.

Soido

This imprisonment spell is highly overrated. I guess because it has no saves.

But there are 5 ways to counter, maybe more

1. Potions of complete magic immunity
2. Imprisonment is a touch spell (halberd and two-handed sword is out of reach of touch spells) - needs confirmation
3. Archers - it is not mandatory to beat a lich lord in melee
4. There is a spell granting immunity to spells too
5. Imprisonment is cast rarely in the game as it is very high level spell known only to few select boss like creatures. Maybe 2-3 times in the whole saga

I hardly would say Berserker is better for sake of imprisonment spell alone

Humanoid_Taifun

Imprisonment is not a touch-spell when it is cast by demi-liches.

StummvonBordwehr

As I see the the beserker is better overall. It’s advantages are better than the barbarians ditto.

Beserker advantages:
- rage lasts longer. It’s a turn vs 6 turns.
Try killing the sirens in BG1 at low level. The barbarian rage is not lasting long enough to wipe 3 sirenes out at low levels for instance (forcing you to make your saves).
- the rage protects against imprisonment - which is neat,
- Grandmastery in most weapons,
- Can wear heavy armour

Barbarian advantages
- a bit more HP, which can be mitigated by loading up on potions of heroism,
- faster movement, nice but not necessary
- Damage reduction. I love it, but the higher AC gets you in trouble.

I have played both classes and often no-reload. The barbarian is wonderful, and I love it. It’s a class of its own, and I really like
The beserker is a plain fighter with an inbuilt story mode button.

I lost my barbarian runs because the ToB enemies wore me out with raw power. My beserker runs ended because I forgot to press the “story mode button”.

The beserker is better, but the barbarian is more enjoyable as I see it.

Soido

What ? And 2 AC of the berserker makes you stronger compared to barbarian mobility ? Well if you thought that barbarian is a frontliner then problably rightfully so you are disappointed.

A barbarian is not a frontliner in the first place. He is a nemesis to casters and archers. He flanks, he fights in the background and he has 90 % of the kills for that matter.

Excuse but berserker is only 2 AC better plus some heavy armor. He is a tank. But not so big a tank as you think compared to dwarven defender. Again a barbarian is a nemesis. Yes not grand mastery but often wields the best weapons with 7 specializations and hits like a truck.

StummvonBordwehr

Well it was just as see it, nothing more.

Grandmastery is 1/2 apr more each round, +2 thaco and +3 damage, which I find huge.

I usually build my characters around which weapon I want to use, and I can have 3 weapons that I grand master in. Enough for me.

The difference between full plate and scale mail is something to consider. The AC gap in it self, and also the huge bonuses besides that (bonuses vs slashing and piercing). In all I find it significant.

I forgot to mention that rage boosts strength. A stat that I usually boost with potions and DUHM, so I don’t find it of critical value.

I usually play solo characters so my recommendations are mostly founded in solo play.

If I want to flank with a character I use a full scale kensai orc with a two handed weapon. But different play styles, means different tactics. Most characters are strong if you use them the right way. And as I said, I also love the barbarian.

As mentioned Scales of balance is a really awesome mod. Seeing your play style and preferences I would reckon the changes would suit you well.

Danacm

The real nemesis of archers and vanilla mages are high level monks.

Humanoid_Taifun

@Danacm You say that, but once the mage has cast PfMW, the monk either runs off very quickly or the monk is in trouble.

kansasbarbarian

Berserker has great benefits. I still like barbarian better. IMHO berserker should be a barbarian.
Berserker was a Nordic barbarian warrior after all.
I hate that barbarian can only wear medium armor and berserker full plate.
Conan the original barbarian wore all types of armor even full plate. Don't even get me started about why they can't multiclass or dual class.
As everyone knows Barbarian is my favorite class along side Dwarven Defender.

kansasbarbarian

Wow did not mean to sound like I was having a tantrum. Lol
In my current run just finished Durlags tower and am crushing everything. He will around 275k xp when I start SOD with him.
He hasn't died yet.

Humanoid_Taifun

@kansasbarbarian Every berserker may have been a barbarian, but not every barbarian was a berserker. Barbarian just meant that the person was uneducated and could not speak Greek (or whatever was considered the civilized language at the time). Romans and others liked to emphasize how the lack of civilization kept these folks tough and dangerous.
But Berserkers were elite barbarians. It was an official title that came with a corresponding shirt. I reckon that on average berserkers had better armor and weapons than their mere barbarian friends. (that said, at the time there would have been no full plate armor, so it is a bit anachronistic to wonder whether they should be allowed to wear it)

kansasbarbarian

@Humanoid_Taifun those are valid points. But in the fantasy setting we are playing in there is no reason that barbarian can't wear full plate. I know over the years we have debated barbarian vs berserker many times.
Starting SOD now. I will have Glint and M'Kihn in my party.

Chronicler

There's no reason anybody "Can't" wear full plate in the game, unless they don't meet the strength requirements.

But Barbarians being a tradition of lightly armored warriors seems as good a reason as any to impose that limitation.

Same way that there's no actual reason mages "can't" wear a helmet, and rationally, they should want to protect their noggin, but the designers just had a different vision in mind for them.

Danacm

There is really no need of barbarian and berserker as separate classes, idk why tge original devs use this way. I used to mod berserker to gain the resistances, d12 hp, barbarian rage instead of berserker but with grandmastery and full plate. I liked it better.

Soido

Yeah it raises some questions as to how come a fighter type barbarian not able to wear plate armor. They could have allowed it but for example by imposing some penalties on his skills, similarly to when a cleric/mage loses the ability to cast spells when equipping heavy armor.

But I guess then that would also start raising other questions as to why at all having such penalties and not just allow him to wear plate armor. But it is what it is.