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Pros and Cons of some of your favorite classes/kits for whole saga

NeoNeo Member Posts: 90
I'm getting close to the end of my 2nd BG2 playthrough (done BG1 maybe 4-5 times, SoD once, IWD once). I'd like to have ideas that could inspire me for what to play next if I plan on doing BG1/SoD/BG2 again.

I would also find interesting to know if there are specific weapons or items that you find to be must-have or really good for the classes you're describing.

I'm possibly interested in using a Stalker next time. I'm curious about Barbarian (the +str buff from Rage and extra health sounds insane for BG1, less so in BG2 but the resistances to physical damage seem interesting. However, the lower armor might result in a melee fighter that's always getting injured?). I'm curious about the other paladin kits (only played with Inquisitor and Undead Hunter). I'm curious about Cleric kits or multi/dual class ones (I've always used some but probably not in the right way, they were normally mostly there to heal and sprinkle buffs, sometimes tank a bit). The only Ranger I've truly played is Archer. Curious about Kensai or its variations (played a Kensai/Mage solo through BG1 and early BG2 but it felt like it would only become a weak mage late game, I didn't see the point unless it was to be able to solo the series, maybe I wasn't playing it right). Still never tried bards. For druids, aside from Jaheira multiclass, I only played a Shapeshifter once through IWD, it was ok but the Greater Werewolf's THAC0 was too weak to be truly efficient (and damage was still roughly half of my Berserker or Undead Hunter's damage). Playing Shaman in my current BG2 game but overall, I find the class to be a bit weak and not that great (I was almost about to drop her from the party when she started getting HLAs that kept her a bit relevant).


Here are a few of the ones I played more and enjoyed so far as an example:

1- Sorcerer

Pros: Can use its spells depending on what is more needed during the encounters instead of ending up with several unused spells that are there just in case they would be needed. Can become really strong offensively and can instantly get the spells you want most when the spell level becomes available (no need to wait to find a scroll for it).

Cons: Much more limited in the amounts of spells it can learn making him a lot less versatile than a Mage could be. Needs careful planning beforehand or else you end up with spells you regret having picked and locked out of some you would have wanted or only get them much later on.

Many items are good but Robe of Vecna in BG2 would be the most important one I think. The hidden caster ring in early BG1 was nice too.

2- Berserker

Pros: I think it's possibly the strongest fighter kit in most circumstances. Not much penalty (unless you like using ranged weapons with fighters) and its Rage is a really strong buff against crowd control abilities (on top of the extra bit of damage and survivability).

Cons: If the fight lasts long and Rage wears off, you end up with a penalty. Not a whole lot of flavor to the class/kit aside from what you gain from specific gear (similar with most fighters).

3- Monk (Dark Moon)

Pros: Probably one of the strongest melee in the game. Becomes godly late game (starts getting truly good at lvl 15+). High damage, immune to slow/poison/disease. Super high magic resistance (I have over 100 in BG2 with a few items but if I was naked, I would still have 78%) so becomes almost immune to most spells as well. Insane armor (currently at lvl 35, unbuffed I'm at -18 armor, -29 vs missile(!!) and I can cast Blur to boost it an other 3). Fast move speed. Can use a lot of different weapons (only 1 pip) if needed for specific situations where your +4 fists aren't optimal. Has a few abilities that are useful early game where he's weak (BG1) like Blind or the chill adding +2 dmg to fists, mirror image, etc. Quivering Palm can be quite strong if enemies fail their saving throws (insta death).

Cons: Extremely weak and rather boring at low levels (through BG1 in general and most of SoD). Can only have 1 point into weapon specializations so he can't really truly make good use of most weapons (mostly useful if you need a ranged attack, a specific element to kill off Trolls or your fist magic dmg isn't high enough yet to hit a specific target). For HLAs, there seems to only really be 2 good options (GWW or Hardiness) which might make it a bit repetitive and boring at a certain point. Cannot be hasted so at most he stays on 4 attacks per round (several GWW can fix this to a certain extend late game but also explains why Critical Hit HLA seems to be useless for him vs GWW). Very rare monk specific items (only 3 that I can think of).

For items, the helm from SoD (Headband of Focus) is great and the BG2 gloves from the underwater city (Gauntlets of Crushing). Rasaad BG2 quest gloves can be used until you can get the better gauntlets or if you can't get them based off your storyline choices. Dagger of Venom was useful for me in BG1/SoD to try to prevent caster spells.

4- Fighter / Thief

Pros: Can handle the traps and lockpicks. Good Backtab damage. Traps can be fun and allow a different playstyle (although I only started using mine late game since I was spending my points into the trap detection, unlock and the 2 abilities to go stealth and backstab). Decent THAC0 (not as good as fighters but still decent). Can do good damage with dual wield after opening with a backstab. Becomes incredibly versatily, fun and lots of flavor once you start getting the HLAs since Use All Items allows to use several mage items and scrolls, very powerful new traps as well as several good offensive options (both GWW and Critical Hit can be useful, critical hit can be used before opening with backstab for crazy damage) as well as a couple of defensive ones.

Cons: A bit squishy for a fighter (compared to Monks, pure fighters or paladins) and the THAC0 also is a bit weaker. Feels limited on weapon proficiency points (I barely have everything I needed as I was Dual Wielding Katanas through SoA and occasional staves for backstab into mostly using staff backstab in ToB and now dual wielding Longswords that I find better in the very late game). Takes long before the F/T can be proficient to do a lot of things like handle traps/unlocks+stealth for backstab+traps, etc. (I started mine in BG2 so it wasn't as bad but would probably be a lot weaker and more boring in BG1).

For items, there are so many possibilities, it's hard to tell but Staff of Ram in ToB certainly is a great one for backstabs. Mercykiller Ring also can be good to get early BG2.

5- Archer

Pros: Insane THAC0 (currently at -21 unbuffed at lvl 26). Good sustained damage from range that won't get stuck in the way of other melee. Weapons specialization needed are easily met (max shortbow, max(2pts) into slings and max (1pt) into axes, everything else seems useless). Has some extra utility and options with various types of magic arrows. Call shot is pretty decent mid/late game.

Cons: Not the most exciting character to play, it does its job very well but doesn't bring much else to the table. The very few low level druid spells it gains at higher levels are not very useful by then for the most part (Call Lightning is really good but can almost never be used). Arrows are consumed and you might run out of a certain type of magic arrow eventually (helps a lot if you steal most of them early BG2). Can have some issues to be able to hit certain enemies since the only bow that can hit enemies with +4 is late in SoD while every other one relies on the arrow type and even +3 aren't common (especially if you don't go do Watcher's Keep early levels) through SoA. The +5 sling is often needed in those situations but not optimal for the Archer.

If I had to redo it, I would possibly have spent those wasted points in dual wield and 1h weapons (that I've never used) into crossbow for Firetooth and extra options from having both magic arrows and magic bolts.

For items, in BG2 it would have to be Bow of Gesen and Sling of Everard+5. Azuredge +3 can be useful (anti-undead thrown axe). Other than that, there's a good shortbow in SoD (decent +THAC0 and dmg and + move speed).

6- Inquisitor

Pros: Decent melee fighter with 2 excellent skills to deal with enemy spell casters (Dispell cast at high level and faster cast time and True Sight). Can use one of the best weapons in the game (2h sword) while most other classes and kits can't use it. Immune to Hold and Charm.

Cons: Dispel Magic can be bad if you rely on a lot of buffs and enemies are close to you as it will also strip your own buffs.

Items, Carsomyr (2h sword) obviously in BG2 is one of the best. Daystar (Long Sword anti-undead) also can be used and pretty decent.



  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 227
    My favourite class is fighter/mage and all variants are great.

    1) Multi F/M is strong from the beginning to the end. Gnome F/I is the strongest class but I prefer half elves.

    2) Kensai/Mage is especially strong with Item Revisions (Kensai can use bracers). For proficiencies I would suggest axes. In BG1 you can use throwing axes (to preven deadly critical strikes from enemies) and in BG2 swith to dual wielding.

    3) Berserker/Mage for game without Item Revisions. You can use any weapons you like but I like halberds. Ravager is brutal.

    Multi F/M has no cons, dual force you to play for a long time with weak mage (I usually dual at level 13) and be dependent on other party members.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    edited December 1
    i play mostly bg2 only and i don't own sod so i am not entitled to talk about a whole saga playtrough.

    but here is my contribution:

    dual fighter9->mage
    in bg you play as fighter so it is easy, in sod you have to dual and i can't tell you how hard it is, but scribing and erasing scrolls and saving some xp reward should probably make it easy enough, you complete the dual at 500k xp that is the sod cap, so with those tricks, if there are enough scrolls to do it, you should complete the dual before the last battles of that game (but i don't know that game and for now i don't want to be spoiled about as i plan to buy it in the future and want to go there completely not spoiled).
    in bg2 he will become a powerful mage, almost as good as a single class one, and will be a capable fighter until the last tob battle, if you give him OH crom to compensate his lev9 fighter thac0. and he will have GM in the chosen weapon.

    F/M multi is also really strong, but is more limited as arcane caster, end game he will have no more then 2 lev 9 spells and will have access to lev 9 much later (improved alacrity, spell trap for combos with PI that allow to recharge the mage's spells used in it while the PI unleash the whole spellbook on the enemy and on and over).
    the pros are no down time and fighter's hla.

    i find him not only really powerful when bomb the enemies with his spells, but also as the party engine.
    when i have a party with a sorcerer often the first spell he cast is PI, then the PI (RoV and AoP) cast improved alacrity and a split second after that the whole party is improved hasted, protected from magical or elemental damage if needed, and the enemy is breached and under greater malison.
    then the pi start to fire barrages of flame arrows, magic missiles and add some adhw.
    with the right picks the sorc is also powerful at much lower levels, mine was able to solo the very hard tactics mod chateau irenicus starting from bg2, so at less then 90k xp, there you find an enemy lev 19 cleric that summon a deva and some other nasty enemies. so i would say that even in bg and sod he has his own power, while in bg2 will become super powerful.

    C/M in the early part of the saga lack of levels to really buff, but at least has a lot of spells as has access at 2 different magics, later on is fantastic, an aerie with better stats, and aerie in the right hands is super powerful.

    C of lathander11->M
    you play as cleric the first 2 games, and the boon will help you, then at 675k xp you dual, so early in bg2 if you have reached the sod cap. then you need other 750k xp to complete the dual and again saving quest rewards and scribing/erasing make it faster, but not fast as dualing from F9 to M.
    then you will have a character that compared to the multi has 2 boons, that can stack, giving you +2 apr, for 8apr when DW and improved hasted, and end game a much more powerful mage, with enough divine power to be effective also that way.
    the con, down time apart, is that you will buff as a lev 11 cleric, while the multi do it up to a lev 20 cleric, and the cleric's combat buffs are level depending, you get stats bonuses, hp boost and better thac0 depending on your cleric level with a cap of 20, that the dual never reaches.
    so better mage, more apr 1 or 2 times/day, but less divine power and buff effectiveness.

    much better thief then imoen or nalia, you have to wait for a good stabbing multiplier, but he has the proper thac0 to stab without missing, and can fight almost as well as a pure fighter.
    when you get HLA he start to really shine. UAI (carsomyr, wands and on and over), GWW and CS from the fighter and the really strong thief HLA (traps, hla that make him more resilient).

    those are only few suggestions based mainly on what they can do in bg2, where the bulk of my experience is, but also with an eye to the other games, you don't have to suffer trough them only to get a super toon later.

    i also think that the player style is really important, a character shine only if the player is able to make him shine, and almost every one of us is more capable in some kind of tactics and in using some classes and combos. for that reason i don't think that there is an ideal build in absolute, but only an ideal build for a certain player, that is able to use at best its capabilities.

  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 90
    About SoD (no spoilers), I honestly don't remember that much of it aside from the final fight that was a bit more challenging. I personally didn't find it as good as BG1/BG2/ToB in general (especially for the dialogues/story) but the best thing about it was the addition of several unique class or kit related items with special effects (I won't get into details of those in case you don't want to know about it). That's why I downloaded the Unofficial Item Pack mod for BG2 (allows several of these items to be purchasable or found back in BG2) because one item I got for my Monk through SoD was nice and there are very few Monk items in the whole series (and BG2 didn't have anything better to replace this slot with).

    I don't think it was too hard because I did it with my Dark Moon Monk (after completing BG1) and my Monk was pretty weak until lvl 14-15+ (BG2 SoA) compared to most other classes and kits and I don't remember having any trouble with it aside from final encounter being a bit harder (Core Rules).

    As in terms of power, some of the classes/kits I've played are really weak early on and become extremely strong late game (seems to be the case for most mages and dual/multi builds). Like my Monk that was one of the worst through BG1 and probably one of the strongest in BG2/ToB. Similar with my F/T. My Wizard Slayer was more or less a weaker version of the regular Fighter for most of BG2 and is only truly starting to shine now at the very end of ToB (lvl 30) as he finally has high magic resistance (above 80%, silver scale armor and the permanent buff from Watcher's keep added 20% of this number) while for most of the game, his magic resistance was so low that it was almost as if it was non-existant (as for the spell failure passive, I think poison is more effective in BG1 and in BG2, he often can't hit through caster defenses to apply it anyways relying on other team mates to strip those defenses and once they're gone, he often blows them up in a few hits so the spell failure thing is rarely useful, sometimes can be vs high hp casters like dragons but that's rare).

    I think that clerics get most of their power early/mid game. Fighters and rangers possibly are rather stable and good all game long (especially in BG1). I'm very curious about Barbarians as the buffs sound crazy strong for BG1 (half orc would reach 24 str) but this buff would become almost useless later in BG2.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,801

    Pros: Unlimited tactics. You can cast spells, use wands, pick pockets, use almost every weapon in the game (after UAI, literally any weapon in the game). Gets access to the great thief HLAs, No-fail spike traps or time stop traps. You can tackle any problem pretty much any way that you want.

    Cons: People weridly seem to think that bards are the weakest class and will look down upon you.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    i play bards and appreciate them, i am far from considering them a weak class.
    but to be fair i see some more cons.

    rogue thac0 and apr, is true that they can equip a lot of weapons and after uai all them, but in some cases they can not put a pip in them, a bard can equip carsomyr, but will not hit so frequently with it.
    a blade kit DW speed weapons can reach good apr, but is really item consuming, he needs to use all the best items that can improve his thac0 to be really effective.

    they can cast and use wands, they can also pickpocket so they can potentially recharge them for free.
    but wands in late soa and tob are less powerful, while before are super useful.
    and as spellcasters are quite limited end game, before their dispel magic and level depending spells will be very strong as they level up fast, later the lack of high level spells and less spells/level then a mage make them at best secondary arcane casters.

    the thief hlas and song are indeed good ( the song needs to be modded for a larger aoe ).
    imo the not EE bard is way stronger for a couple of reasons.
    his song has a good aoe (ok, too large, but there is a right spot between it and the ridiculously small area of the EE one), but mainly in not EE is easy to have a bard sing and attack in the same round using the autopause on round end, i have still to find a viable way to do it in EE.
    in not EE the songs stack, in EE only if are different ones, you can have a skald song and an improved one stack, but not the song of a bard and the one of his mislead or an other similar bard.
    in not EE i had up to 2 bards in the party, in EE i have never more then 1, and less frequently as before.
    still i continue to like and play them, even if i find a lot less stronger.
    my haer dalis singing as he was fighting, so gaining 10 ac points and improving all the party, was really powerful, and i used him so a lot more then for stacking songs. but in EE seems to be no more possible.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    Neo wrote: »

    I think that clerics get most of their power early/mid game.
    not completely true imo.
    it is true that the high level spells a late game cleric get are not as powerful as the mage's ones, nothing he can do compares to improved alacrity, time stop and adhw amd their deva is less strong then the planetar, but they get very good combat buffs that are level depending and start to really shine at high level.
    a lev 20 cleric can have the same thac0 a fighter of the same level has, 25 str, a good hp and stats boost and can hold the front line dual welding for 4 strong attacks/round if improved hasted, even with only a pip in DW. A mage with tensor can do something similar, but inferior, and his casting will be prevented if he does, while the cleric can cast when buffed for combat, use armor and if needed shield and will have more hp.
    what for a mage is a last resource when he has no other options, to fight in the frontline, is something a high level cleric can do, and imo should do, on a regular base if the tactical situation don't need him in the back casting. and even so with his buffs his sling will hit often and with good damage, around 60 dmg/round if hasted.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 707
    Also clone singing was before ee a good strategy. The blade also loose: the offensive spin not stack in er with haste, the defensive spin not used with free action.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    the clone can still sing in EE, what is no more possible is to have more clones or the clone and the bard stacking the songs.

    personally i don't like much to have the clone singing because having the clone grants also to the bard a super improved invisibility with the bonus to thac0 that is given to an invisible toon and as invisibility is continuously re applied without retaliation from the enemies.
    some players like it, and use mislead for that purpose with their thieves, FM and bards, i don't like tactics that make impossible for the enemy to react. it sounds wrong to me, just like bombing from outside their view field or setting traps near blue enemies. i like cheese, but i like also challenge and something that completely removes it is not my way to play...

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 707
    But when irenicus have 10 spell slots per level thats not fair too. If he can have, why pc mage of the same level cannot ?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    because a human (half working) brain is anyway a lot more powerful and adaptable to the situation then the ai scripts that are possible to implement in the engine.

    let's take tactics mod irenicus, he splits in 5 forms, that you have to fight at once, one is a level draining dragon, an other is a super mordy sword and on and over. and he has abilities that the vanilla one can only dream about. and get helpers like ever spawning viverns, lich, beholders and on and over. you can't trap the spawning points as a split second before the real enemies spawn some shadows spawn sucking the traps damage.
    still so many players had defeated him, with party or solo, using cheese or not.

    or take the soulafein mod where if you recruit him he get abducted by bodhi, then you have to fight him as he is in a lich-vampire form and he is using a triple spell immunity, the classical immunity to divination and abjuration but also from alteration so even the RROR is not effective.
    then in the same mod you have to fight against 6 people, one of them is a sorcerer and the fighters have super cheesy powerful weapons, while every normal round is followed by a round where they use a collective time stop, your party is freezed but they are all active.
    same story, the half working brain human prevails, maybe thanks to the power of reload, but that mod has not been beat only by an elite of pro players, in the old times so many did it...

    so why to worry if uncle jon has 10 spell slots? he is anyway to an huge disadvantage, as soon as a player learn how to play, how to use the strengths and capabilities of his party.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 707
    True, he has disadvantage, to not controlled by player dm :smile: but anyway, he should be more dangerous with smarter ai (bg2 is full of smart spell combos, but needed the scs like new rules) and more more summons to be strong. At least follower fellow mages like in some scs content fights. But bg2 is so old i know and the engine is archaic (but let see POE is a great game with this engine).

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    edited December 2
    yep is a limited old engine, even with scs or some components of tactics mod that rely on better ai instead of cheese it is far from impossible to beat the game.
    it would have been great to have an ai that really reacts to what the player do, with each group of enemies having different possible strategies adopted randomly so is impossible to have a metaknowledge on what they will do or how they will buff.
    but, engine limitations apart, it would have been an incredibly long work for the developers or modders to script such "intelligent and not predictable" ai.
    also to write a proper ai script who does it must not only be a good coder, but also a very strong player, that really knows in depth all the game mechanics and spell combinations and is able to script offensive and defensive strategies that can challenge even the most seasoned players.
    very few are elite coders and also elite players...

    but think for a moment how great would have been to go against an enemy, let's say irenicus, and ask ourselves: "what will jon do this time, which defense strategy he will put on? which spells he has memorized to damage or incapacitate our party? how he will react and counter my attack?".

    EDIT: ok, i know that i am dreaming about something that is impossible, but if possible and done would have probably made those games the best computer games ever created.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,801
    Danacm wrote: »
    But when irenicus have 10 spell slots per level thats not fair too. If he can have, why pc mage of the same level cannot ?

    Well, Irenicus doesn't have a party backing him up.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    not completely true, only in the tree battle he fight alone, in the one in spellhood he has helpers and also in the last one. not a proper party but i would say that 4 demons are quite helpful.

    anyway he is supposed to be one of the most powerful mages, that can perfectly manage the situation by himself, after all he was able to take control of spellhood alone, and was talking to a matron mother as an equal.

    the fact is that for a novice he is very hard, but i remember the video of a speed run where the charname, that never leveled up as it was time consuming, needed only few seconds to kill him and end the speed run.
    for an experienced player to beat the vanilla irenicus is not a problem, is very easy to do it.
    i remember when i was a beginner, the last soa battle was so hard for me, even if i was running a full party, every time took me many reloads and often i had one or more npc dying in the process, now is almost a joke, and often i send each one of my party members to solo it then i reload and repeat the thing with each other npc.

    if the people less interested in RP after some times start to play LOB, ScS, no reload or other settings that increase the challenge is because the vanilla game is not challenging at all once you learn how to play, and somehow the battles against the mages are among the easiest once you know how to protect yourself and take down the enemy protections or damage him in ways he is not protected against.

  • RigelRigel Member Posts: 90
    I usually play halflings, and for me, halfling is like a class (like it was in the first AD&D rules ...). I mean, I play halfling thiefs. Or plain vanilla thief, or swashbuckler. I play Good-aligned character, so cannot play assassin, and bounty hunter seems as well not fit for a halfling (that's of course my personal opinion. I like very much the character of Montaron, one can be an evil halfling, it's just that I prefer good-aligned halfling).
    So for the moment, I play halfling swashie. I try to RP them so this has some consequences on the game (see pros and cons).


    Max thief abilities
    Good AC
    THAC0 and damages increase with leveling - I tend to use it as a ranged-weapon specialist (even if he has just one star in shortbow). In BG2, I try to use throwing daggers (pretty effective, I killed Firkraag with the boomerang dagger in my last playthrough).
    Good teamplayer - in BG1, I dual class Imoen to mage immediately, and I assemble a team with usually Branwen (or Yeslick), Coran, AJantis or Kivan, and Alora of course - even if it is not optimal from a powergaming point of view, I always take her in my team. So it may be seen as a kind of constraint, btw.
    And in BG2, of course always Mazzie.


    No backstabbing
    Low strength (max 10)
    Good aligned characters miss quests, looting and other interesting NPCs (Viconia, Edwin, Korgan).
    No boots (bare feet of course)
    Usually cannot use items found (armors, cloaks, etc) because of the size. Needs to have custom-made armors (dragon scale OK).
    Just use "small weapons", even after HLAs.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,987
    wow, that is serious role playing...

  • RigelRigel Member Posts: 90
    The thing is that halflings are approximately of the size of a 4 to 5 year old child. My children are older now, but I remember when they were at that age, and it is difficult for me to imagine them weilding a long sword for example ... On youtube there is a nice vid discussing halfling strength

    Usually I give a maximum of 10. Even for a fighter thief, or a fighter, they should not be able to have medium shield, and of course plates (one could argue that it is possible to customize the size, and that the "true absolute"weight of a plate for a halfling will be smaller thant the typical weight of the plate. But it would complicate the game, so I prefer to reduce altogether the strength of my characters.

    The "no boot"rule .... OK Zhurlong has boots, so I could use them. But, being NG I give him back, and moreover, I guess the character will feel better with his (stinking?) feet not in shoes (that's a good question - do halfling feet stink or not ?).

    Alora ... I love her, that's all. Cannot imagine a party without her, like I cannot play without Aerie in BG2 (and without Mazzy).

  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 90
    Hah, that's funny. I just started my new series run and have SCS installed (making it harder) so I won't try that now but maybe an other time in the unmodded version. I always found Khalid in BG1 to be really week with his 15 str, 10 (especially for carrying stuff) is a whole other story : P. Part of why I find most of the series too easy on core rules surely has to do with me maxing the combat stats (although it doesn't change much for casters and they're already crazy strong late game). If I wanted to RP more and have more realistic stats, the game should still be doable fine on Core Rules with a party that isn't stats optimized. Do you use the belts of str and such (because those would have a huge impact on 10 str characters once you get them)?

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