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Priest of Lathander > Fighter (or F/C)

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  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    edited March 5
    Shangeroo wrote: »
    If I recall correctly, the PoL.......... So with improved haste, boon, and gauntlets you'll get 5 apr.

    Now a fighter/cleric gets the APR bonus's from fighter at 7 and 13. So with haste and gauntlets you get the same apr.

    ................... as I'm assuming you'll be dual wielding Crom Faeyr and either...............
    the single class PoL reaches 5 apr without any haste spell as he can stack the boon +1 apr more times. with vanilla improved haste it is 10 apr.
    the multi gets at best 1 base + 1 DW + 1 from levels +1/2 from specialization + 1/2 from gauntlets = 4apr, 8 improved hasted, so actually has less apr then the single class kitted, even if the latter has the spike only full buff. but as single class he reaches much earlier higher levels of buffing as some buffs scale with his level.
    the multi gets GWW, but the number of 10 apr rounds/day a single class PoL can get lat game is probably more as GWW last only a round.
    the dual from PoL to fighter can have 1 or 2 boons and lev 13 + GM so he can reach the same apr the single kit has and will also get gww, so is the one with more apr of them all late game. or better told more 10 apr rounds/day as they all can reach 10 apr in vanilla (and the OP never mentioned scs and its +1 apr improved haste in the opening post).

    also i give for granted that a cleric never uses crom, but for the minor battles if soloing.
    there is only one weapon that can give 25 str and there is only one class that from a certain level on can reach 25 str at will, the cleric.
    so in a party giving that hammer to the cleric is to have a single toon at 25 str instead of 2, solo using it instead of buffs is to have 25 str but at the price of not using more useful weapons, like the FoA, more damaging and with a no save slowing effect super strong or the defender that gives damage reduction or the club that when protected from fire is super strong or the hammer and mace that kill undeads (not that undeads are a problem for a solo cleric, he can turn demiliches). for the solo to use crom is worth it only for the minor battles so he does not have to buff with spells, against bosses and buffed is a weak choice.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    edited March 5
    Vanilla on core rules a PoL can solo the game.
    actually in the past he did it also on insane, with ascension + tactics mod +scs + planar sphere mod + deeper shadows of amn and other mods that give very difficult battles, and only the ascension final battle stopped him. but the PoL reached that point without lowering the slider from insane and probably never completed the game only because he refused to do it against the final boss and could not rest in the Throne on insane settings.
    so in the right player hands for a PoL vanilla and core rules is a very easy task i would say...

    if you have doubts try to google " a cleric is having fun" ;)

    that told both multi FC and kitted F (from lev 7 on) ->C are very powerful, as well as PoL->M or T and the multi CM and CT.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 476
    edited March 5
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    an other viable dual from a caster class to an other is cleric (PoL) into thief, best at 11, but also possible at 9.

    Ooooh, love the build! I only (somewhat) recently discovered the greatness of C/T multis, now I want to try this dual !
    F/C hands down.
    PoL>thief dualed at level 15 is perhaps more optimal, okay definitely more optimal.

    Why lvl15 ? You get lvl7 spells at lvl14, lvl15 only adds a lvl3 & lvl4 spell slot, no 3rd Boon of Lathander (it comes at lvl16), no thac0/saving throw/proficiency bonus.

    I'd say, the right lvls to dual are:
    - lvl7, latest dual to regain your abilities in BG1 (only access up to lvl4 spells though)
    - lvl9 to get access to lvl5 spells and have a still somewhat early dual (385k XP total, so before the end of SoD)
    - lvl11 : another cast of Boon of Lathander + lvl6 spells
    - lvl14 : lvl 7 spells, starts to become a real hassle to gain back those levels
    - lvl16 : your spellcaster level is significant, you get 3 casts of Boon of Lathander, better thac0 etc. But you only gain back your cleric abilities at 3,34 million XP. That's a definite no to me, but some people don't mind the long wait.


    EDIT: the benefits I see of dualing at lvl15 instead of 14 are that the Animate Dead spell gets the highest skeleton warriors, and you have better DuHM/Champion's Strength.
    @_Nightfall_ Was that why you suggest dualing at lvl15 ?

    RE:EDIT: also, I forgot that the Boon of Lathander comes only every 10 levels, not every 5 levels, so no use going for lvl16 I guess.

    Post edited by monico on
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    edited March 5
    monico wrote: »
    EDIT: the benefits I see of dualing at lvl15 instead of 14 are that the Animate Dead spell gets the highest skeleton warriors, and you have better DuHM/Champion's Strength.
    never use Champion's Strength as a cleric unless for some particular reason you absolutely have to give to an other party member 18.00 str, and the only reason i can see is to force open some container that can be forced with 18.00 but not with 18.76.
    to give str to the others there is an other spell that give to all the ones inside its aoe if i ma not wrong 18.76 str. Send the toons with more then 18.76 far enough and their str will not be lowered by the spell, the range is 15 ft.
    and to buff the cleric the route is always holy power, righteous magic then at last if needed duhm, the order you cast them is very important.
    a cleric with enough levels reaches 25 str even without duhm, that anyway can be useful for the dex and con bonus (better ac and more hp).

    the combo HP, RM, DUHM on top of rising the str gives other benefits, more hp, fighter like thac0 and maxed damage roll, while C's S make impossible for the priest to cast as long as it is active.
    champion's strength is probably the worst designed and less useful of the whole divine spell pool, i avoid it and never memorize it.

  • monicomonico Member Posts: 476
    I don't use it in general either, except maybe on minions/party members. Or in SoD's final battle from scrolls since the thac0 bonus stacks (cheese).

    It also has a niche use for Priests of Helm, good synergy between CS and their innate Seeking Sword ability.
    To me, the real problem of the CS spell is its long duration, a spell with such a drawback (no spellcasting) is only useful if you know it's just a short boost of power, or if you could deactivate it somehow before the end.

    But yeah, in 99,9% of the time, I just stay clear of this spell too :wink:

  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 288
    I thought about this recently. Of'course the question does not have straight answer as some of you have already mentioned it depends hugely on difficulty (LoB or not) and mods and if you play solo or in party setting.

    For me, I play exclusively on LoB with SCS and ascension and couple of small mods. In this setting I try to maximize party DPS output to the point it plays around the way as it was in the past before lob.

    In my opinion Pol > Fighter is best used as ranger character. PoL (12) > Fighter is pretty easy to dual in party environment and with 12 levels of cleric you get access to 6th level spells and you get +4 STR from DUHM. With this you just equip strength belt which with 20STR belt almost caps you on strength or with 21str potion allows you to cap easily. DUHM has very fast cast time compared to RM so it's super easy to rebuff in middle of the fight to maintain full STR.

    By end of SOA my PoL>F had 32-35 damage with sling at 10APR fully buffed. Double that with simulacrum. Or 23-26 at 3 APR unbuffed (or 27-30 with just DUHM). Which with DUHM is already the around the same output as unbuffed Archer of the same level. With double DUHM it goes leaps beyond what archer can do.Of course I'm comparing this character to archer as I feel it suits better ranged damage dealer role. Cool thing about Pol>F dual is that it gets fighter HLA and since I play with skald that means end game we're talking 39-43 damage per hit at 10 APR x2 with simulacra shooting critical strike shots. For everything non-immune to crits this is deadly combo of ~1600 damage per round. Completely overkill even in LoB setting. For crit immune characters it's the same as archer with GWW and sling.

    Again with LoB I feel like direct melee combat isn't effective on anything that is non-mage variation. Mage combos simply get around same AC except they can be immune to all forms of damage for much longer than any fight in LoB lasts, I usually go several fights without resting.

    With F/C or Ber>C I just feel while indeed they would output simply amazing damage they would also chug through potions like crazy. When it comes to BGEE and SOD definitely they will output much better damage than the dual because obviously before dual, PoL is just cleric with low APR and 1-2 boons that aren't lasting long enough.

    One thing that I like about F/C is ability to cast a lot of cleric spells but then again I use FMC because loss of few levels on both F and C is totally worth getting Mage class in. Mirrors/Skins/PFMW/SI:Abj are totally worth it. And let's not forget about early but very powerful minor sequencer > chant/bless combo which is super effective in melee-party combo. But that's just a side note.

    I wen't though full BGEE>SOD>BG2EE>TOB already couple of times with full custom party end-2-end and I always had much much easier time with melee that were some sort of mage variation. So for me F/C vs PoL>F doesn't compare well because F/C seems to be more suited to melee but it's worse ranged damage dealer than PoL>F by what it feels is a large margin.

    F/C and Monks were and always will be on my 'to try' list. But as soon as I get to it, in BGEE it feels horrible as they can sometimes fall so quickly when overrun by multiple enemies. So in the end I never went through entire game with F/C in this setting.

    Yes I do know that some folks finished game as melee on LOB/SCS solo using non-mage fighters but from what I read it involved a lot of skipping and running away. I on the other hand want to kill everything with no cheese or kiting.

    In the end, it's as per my starting point. It really depends on what your setting is. If you play solo or in party, mods or no mods, LoB or no, melee or ranged, cheese or no cheese. But also importantly do you consinder overall power across the entire trillogy or talking about specific portion of the game or just maximum on paper strength. It's not a simple PoL>F vs F/C comparison. It never will be.

    monico
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »

    also i give for granted that a cleric never uses crom, but for the minor battles if soloing.
    there is only one weapon that can give 25 str and there is only one class that from a certain level on can reach 25 str at will, the cleric.
    so in a party giving that hammer to the cleric is to have a single toon at 25 str instead of 2, solo using it instead of buffs is to have 25 str but at the price of not using more useful weapons, like the FoA, more damaging and with a no save slowing effect super strong or the defender that gives damage reduction or the club that when protected from fire is super strong or the hammer and mace that kill undeads (not that undeads are a problem for a solo cleric, he can turn demiliches). for the solo to use crom is worth it only for the minor battles so he does not have to buff with spells, against bosses and buffed is a weak choice.

    Just curious, if you were running a solo F/C, why would you not want to use Crom Faeyr in your offhand to get the Str 25 Thaco bonus? the useful weapons you mentioned could be in the main hand depending on the situation. But constantly having 25 strength lets you focus your buffs elsewhere.

  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the single class PoL reaches 5 apr without any haste spell as he can stack the boon +1 apr more times. with vanilla improved haste it is 10 apr.
    .

    Good point, I forgot that you can stack that skill. However, for lazy people like me anyways, to have to constantly prep and stack skills would seem tedious (the main reason why I won't play LOB mode) vs simply chugging an oil of speed and off you go.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    @Shangeroo
    for minor battles a solo fc can and should use foa MH and crom OH, foa in the main one as the main one gets more attacks so he has more chance to slow enemies, and is a slow effect that works on a percentage but the enemy rolls no save.


    imo he does not use crom in the main battles because not doing it he is more effective as the main bonus from crom, 25 str, is gotten anyways from the spells he uses to boost other aspects (hp and dmg roll) and if that bonus becomes not relevant there are better weapons he can use, better offensively or defensively depending on the situation. the defender for damage reduction and other weapon for more damage done are better then crom for who has anyway 25 str.

    and probably imo a lazy player should not play a cleric as the cleric has the best offensive buffs in the game, but not using them cause of laziness there are better class options.
    but solo it is not a big deal to buff, it is 2-4 spells depending on the battle, in about 20 sec or less and few mouse clicks you are ready to go...

    Shangeroo
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 437
    I am a very lazy player and like theorising about powerful buffed characters but in reality I rarely use them as I should, normally just laying down haste and the usual cleric protections. For this reason I would rarely use a single class cleric, a dwarf FC is awesome and has nice saves - having to date Neera is a pain though

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 475
    You don't have to date Neera, you know. Going without romance is a perfectly reasonable option.

    (I speak from personal life experience)

    ilduderino
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 476
    Myrag wrote: »
    For me, I play exclusively on LoB with SCS and ascension and couple of small mods. In this setting I try to maximize party DPS output to the point it plays around the way as it was in the past before lob.

    In my opinion Pol > Fighter is best used as ranger character.

    Agree. My ranged-party LoB run included the PoL -> Fighter too, between his sling, the archer's bow, the kensai's throwing dagger, a F/T's crossbow and buffed by my scald's songs, enemies huge HP didn't matter anymore.

    gorgonzola
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Shangeroo


    and probably imo a lazy player should not play a cleric as the cleric has the best offensive buffs in the game, but not using them cause of laziness there are better class options.
    but solo it is not a big deal to buff, it is 2-4 spells depending on the battle, in about 20 sec or less and few mouse clicks you are ready to go...

    Lol, makes sense, that's probably why I've always preferred the Fighter -> Mage types as that's perfect for the lazy player. Honestly, the laziness comes from the fact that I've gone through the game multiple times and there are many fights that I just want to zip through as quickly as possible to get to the bigger fights.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    edited March 6
    for lazy players multi CM and FMC are good options as you can use sequencers and triggers to buff very fast, spell trigger let you apply 3 lev 6 or spells , that can also 3 clerical ones, so let's say righteous magic, blades barer and improved haste, spell sequencer let you apply up to lev 4 so let's say holy power and the 2 fireshield, and the minor secuencer can be used for duhm + AoF or mirror images.
    enemy seen->sequencer and attack the enemy
    beginning of 2nd round ->trigger
    beginning of 3rd round ->minor sequencer
    and you have a full offensively buffed cleric with 2 fire shields and the blades stacked and some defensive protection by damage reduction or expendable images.
    trigger and sequencers almost take no round time and you don't have to wait that the rounds expire one after the other to cast the next buff, thing that is more annoying then few mouse clicks imo.
    also the buffs this way last longer, in 3 rounds you apply 8 buffs, but you can go in battle immediately after you see the enemy, while applying the buffs normally the first ones would have been up to 7 rounds old when you are finally ready.

    when you wake up you set the sequencers, and the long lasting stoneskin as every wise mage does, and you are ready to go.

    or yep you use fighter mages, some pre set stoneskin, improved haste, PFMW on the fly if needed and you are ready to go.

    EDIT: the high level CM can also add to the combo a CC with 3 elementals inside, he will get an elemental prince or 5 greater elementals as helpers, the CC has to be set right before the battle, with enemy seen as condition, to avoid that it triggers if you happen to meet a single hostile kobold or goblin. you can also set it in the first round, as contingency and CC ignore the 1 spell/round limit, but is slightly less efficient as you waste part of the first round to cast it.

    being also a mage let the cleric buff himself very very efficiently using his divine spells and lets also use the arcane ones for protection (and SI abiuration to be sure that his buffs are not dispelled...).
    this is the main reason why having to choose between a FC and a CM i usually prefer the latter, even if he has less apr can buff so fast that is the faster to deal huge damage and win the battle ( i pre buff only if i am sure, beyond meta knowledge, that i am going to a battle, so let's say if i go to battle firkraag after the party has already met him, but not with an enemy that ambushes me or that my scout can not spot).

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
    StummvonBordwehrmonico
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    fx9t14efez8t.png

    Painting warband minis are one of my hobbies. Just picked up one of these guys as my next painting project so now I’m inspired to do a full solo run as a CE dwarf F/C. Rise of Hashut to godhood. Those who play Warhammer should be familiar with the name.

    gorgonzolailduderino
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 437
    edited March 14
    Wow that’s great! Makes me want to dig out my Blood Bowl figures and finally finish a team ... or finish my Orlock gang - argh I can never decide

  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Shangeroo
    for minor battles a solo fc can and should use foa MH and crom OH, foa in the main one as the main one gets more attacks so he has more chance to slow enemies, and is a slow effect that works on a percentage but the enemy rolls no save.


    imo he does not use crom in the main battles because not doing it he is more effective as the main bonus from crom, 25 str, is gotten anyways from the spells he uses to boost other aspects (hp and dmg roll) and if that bonus becomes not relevant there are better weapons he can use, better offensively or defensively depending on the situation. the defender for damage reduction and other weapon for more damage done are better then crom for who has.

    I was testing out some solo cleric tactics using Viconia. In some key fights, like Amelyssan, she casts remove magic on you. Sure you can buff up to str 25 but then it’s all gone. With crom faeyr in offhand you don’t have to worry about that. How would you avoid enemies casting remove magic as clerics don’t have a spell immunity abjuration equivalent?

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    edited March 17
    remove magic is never targeted on a toon, is an aoe effect, with a quite small area by the way.
    if a toon is in that area in the moment RM hits it is only a player's fault.
    and if it happens, completely possible, to equip crom, in a solo situation, is a partial fix for the error, nothing wrong is doing it.
    partial fix because you don't fix the loosing of all the other benefits of the buffs, more thac0, better ac and granted maxed damage roll, you fix only the str problem.
    By loosing the buffs viconia loose something like 60hp, and some ac also, even with crom she is a strong squishy, strong, but very risky to send mlee against an end game boss.

    but to use crom before you are hit by RM-DM is almost always an inferior choice then using other high level weapons like runehammer or club of detonation when full buff, to swap to it if debuffed (but ideally it should not happen) does not contradict it.

    for party clerics to use crom is always to have a toon with 25 str less on the field, there is only a single crom and the fighters lack of other ways to have 25 str.

    i hope it helps.

  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    remove magic is never targeted on a toon, is an aoe effect, with a quite small area by the way.
    if a toon is in that area in the moment RM hits it is only a player's fault.

    Not quite true, in the testing I’ve done, she will cast Time stop then cast remove magic.

    Also are you sure remove magic doesn’t target a player? It says the players’name: remove magic when casts and seems to follow the player. I’ve had many experiences trying to avoid RM from Angelo in the Sarevok fight with another character. The only way to prevent getting hit was to interrupt before he casts. TOB magic users cast Stoneskin to not easy to interrupt without Breach.

    The only way I’ve avoided RM/DM in other fights is to run to a load screen then run back.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    i am quite sure that it is an aoe spell, you can cast it even if an enemy is improved invisible, so impossible to target, and has a 30 ft aoe.
    i did some testing right now and at least the rm and dm the party members can cast don't follow, it is not easy to run away as their projecile is quite fast, but with good timing and an hasted toon it is possible.
    i am not aware of the enemies having a different kind of RM that targets people and not a place in the area, but as i mainly play arcane casters my usual way to counter RM is SI, so even if i am quite convinced that in the past i avoided RM running away i can be wrong about it.

    surely if an enemy cast time stop and then rm there is no way to run away from its aoe, then the problem is to avoid to be in sight when the TS happens.

    about mages using stoneskin to avoid to be disrupted it is actually pretty easy to disrupt them as elemental and poison damage of a weapon pass trough the skin that blocks only the raw physical damage, foa, the mace that deals electrical damage and many other weapons can disrupt a stoneskin protected guy.
    this is not true if the mage is protected by pfmw that completely blocks the hits, instead of adsorbing the physical damage, then a ranged weapon that adds elemental damage used with not enchanted ammo is the only option to disrupt hitting with a weapon. surely an Xbow sold by ribald can do it, also the gesen bow is an option as they add fire or electrical damage to the not enchanted ammo.

    Shangeroo
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