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Dual class help

KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
So as I mentioned in an earlier thread im gonna play through both games with the same character. Im having difficulty deciding on my class so im looking for some help.

On one hand im thinking about dual class Cleric/mage and am wondering about the benefits of this? I'm thinking I will be able to do some decent divine casting and have powerful mage spells later on. Will I be able to wear heavy armor though and use cleric weapons I wonder? And what level do I dual class into mage?

Another idea I have is I want to play a character that is able to use the long bows in the game well and at the same time be a powerful caster. So how do I go about making that happen?

I welcome other fun suggestions. I played these games so much but always end up using the same characters and equipment. Always thinking next time I will make use of longbows, crossbows, have a decent thief, play a character with grand mastery etc.

Help welcome!

«1

Comments

  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    At what level as an archer would I dual class to mage?

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,723
    The level you dual at depends on how you want to play your character. For instance if you just want some extra HPs as a mage then dualling from, say, level 6 as an archer will allow you to play plenty of BG1 as a mage. If you want to be able to hit tougher enemies towards the end of BG2 then you'll need to be an absolute minimum of level 9 and preferably more like 13. That doesn't make much difference to the eventual strength as a mage, but does mean you're playing for a long while before you get decent mage abilities.

    Similarly, if you want to be able ultimately to use higher level cleric spells and play around with those using Vecna and sequencers, you obviously need to spend more time in the game as a cleric - and a dualled cleric can use clerical armor and weapons, once they've progressed to a higher level in their new class then they were as a cleric.

    If you like the idea of long bows and casting, I would suggest a fighter/mage multi. Alternatively you could go for some sort of bard (they can use long bows, though not composite ones), but you might find it's more difficult to get the best out of their abilities.

    KogoStummvonBordwehr
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Grond0 wrote: »
    The level you dual at depends on how you want to play your character. For instance if you just want some extra HPs as a mage then dualling from, say, level 6 as an archer will allow you to play plenty of BG1 as a mage. If you want to be able to hit tougher enemies towards the end of BG2 then you'll need to be an absolute minimum of level 9 and preferably more like 13. That doesn't make much difference to the eventual strength as a mage, but does mean you're playing for a long while before you get decent mage abilities.

    Similarly, if you want to be able ultimately to use higher level cleric spells and play around with those using Vecna and sequencers, you obviously need to spend more time in the game as a cleric - and a dualled cleric can use clerical armor and weapons, once they've progressed to a higher level in their new class then they were as a cleric.

    If you like the idea of long bows and casting, I would suggest a fighter/mage multi. Alternatively you could go for some sort of bard (they can use long bows, though not composite ones), but you might find it's more difficult to get the best out of their abilities.

    Thank you that's very helpful. It sounds like I should play bg1 as an archer all the way and perhaps dual into mage or cleric in bg2. Fighter/mage does sound fun too. I haven't played as a fighter at all. Will I get grandmaster in weapons if I multi? And um.. can I cast spells with armor then?

  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 239
    edited January 19
    Kogo wrote: »

    Thank you that's very helpful. It sounds like I should play bg1 as an archer all the way and perhaps dual into mage or cleric in bg2. Fighter/mage does sound fun too. I haven't played as a fighter at all. Will I get grandmaster in weapons if I multi? And um.. can I cast spells with armor then?

    Multiclass characters can only get specialization (2 pips) so no grand mastery. Generally a multiclass character cannot cast spells in armour. There are certain suits of armour, e.g. elven chainmail, which a multiclass or a bard could wear and still be able to cast spells. In BG1 such things are rare to say the least.

    Edit - I'm talking about multi/dual class mages here. Clerics and Druids can cast spells in armour. A multi or dual class cleric/mage would be able to wear full plate and cast their cleric spells but not their mage spells.

    Post edited by Pingwin on
    Grond0
  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 239
    You mentioned playing an archer in BG1 and then dual to mage or cleric. I could be wrong but I don't think you can dual a ranger to anything except for a cleric.
    You could just go with a regular fighter and put most of your proficiency points into longbow and then dual into a mage.
    Note if you dual to cleric you need to be aware that you are then restricted to only using weapons that clerics can use so any points you've invested in longbows are wasted. You could go for an archer who uses slings and maces/hammers/flails.

    Kogomonico
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 687
    Kogo wrote: »
    Fighter/mage does sound fun too. I haven't played as a fighter at all. Will I get grandmaster in weapons if I multi? And um.. can I cast spells with armor then?
    A lot of people get hung up thinking fighter/mages must be weak because they can't wear full plate while casting spells. However, mage buffs from mirror image to stoneskin are so strong that you won't need armor as a fighter/mage.

    Whether to dual or multi as a fighter/mage is not an easy call. On the plus side, dualed fighter/mages can get grandmastery, choose a kit, and (eventually) cast almost as well as single-class mages. On the minus side, dualed fighter/mages have a prolonged period of boring downtime while they work toward regaining their fighter proficiencies and are forever barred from HLAs like whirlwind attack which are among the strongest abilities in the game.

    If you aren't sure which to do, or don't have a clear plan about exactly when you would want to dual, then your best option by far is to go multi as you can't really mess that up. But if you do have a clear plan and are willing to be bored for a while, a dualed fighter/mage can also be a great choice.

    Grond0monico
  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 174
    edited January 21
    Lvl 3 fighter to mage dual will get you three pips in Longbow and access to all weapons and armor, plus a good bump to hit points and exceptional strength. Two more longbow pips at mage lvl 6 and lvl 12 completes longbow grandmastery. This character was the first one that I completed BG2 vanilla with, imported from BG1. It was designed for BG1 only at creation, hence the early dual. The main weakness is the low base Thaco (18) which is equivalent to a lvl 7-9 mage.

    For the trilogy run Lvl 7 or Lvl 9 would be best value, to regain use of fighter abilities quickly after the dual class. A lvl 7 dual will mean mean regaining fighter abilities late in BG1, just under the XP cap. A lvl 9 dual means completing BG1 as a fighter at 161k XP, continuing to 250k XP in BG2, then dualing and earning mage experience to Lvl 10. IIRC that will take 375k XP as mage so you will regain fighter abilities reasonably early in BG2.

    If it were me I would either do the lvl 3 dual, Lvl 7 dual or take a fighter/mage multi class. If you don't mind being short a gnome fighter/illusionist is excellent.

    As a final point, longbows are good in BG1 but not BG2. All the best bows are short bows in BG2. A gnome F/I specialised in daggers, darts, shortbows, crossbows sounds fun.

    Post edited by Very_BigSword on
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Pingwin wrote: »
    You mentioned playing an archer in BG1 and then dual to mage or cleric. I could be wrong but I don't think you can dual a ranger to anything except for a cleric.
    You could just go with a regular fighter and put most of your proficiency points into longbow and then dual into a mage.
    Note if you dual to cleric you need to be aware that you are then restricted to only using weapons that clerics can use so any points you've invested in longbows are wasted. You could go for an archer who uses slings and maces/hammers/flails.

    Damn! Good thing I asked for help. Didn't know about that weapon restriction 0-0. This means archer/cleric is a no go for me.

  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Lvl 3 fighter to mage dual will get you three pips in Longbow and access to all weapons and armor, plus a good bump to hit points and exceptional strength. Two more longbow pips at mage lvl 6 and lvl 12 completes longbow grandmastery. This character was the first one that I completed BG2 vanilla with, imported from BG1. It was designed for BG1 only at creation, hence the early dual. The main weakness is the low base Thaco (18) which is equivalent to a lvl 7-9 mage.

    For the trilogy run Lvl 7 or Lvl 9 would be best value, to regain use of fighter abilities quickly after the dual class. Note that lvl 7 dual will mean completing BG1 as a level 7 mage and regaining fighter abilities early in BG2, around the 200k XP mark. A lvl 9 dual means completing BG1 as a fighter at 161k XP, continuing to 500k XP in BG2, then dualing and earning mage experience to Lvl 10. IIRC that will take 375k XP as mage so you will be into mid-game before getting both abilities.

    If it were me I would either do the lvl 3 dual, Lvl 7 dual or take a fighter/mage multi class. If you don't mind being short a gnome fighter/illusionist is excellent.

    As a final point, longbows are good in BG1 but not BG2. All the best bows are short bows in BG2. A gnome F/I specialised in daggers, darts, shortbows, crossbows sounds fun.

    This might be it then! Lv3 fighter and then dual into mage, I can explore bows, grand mastery and high lv spells at the same time. Sounds great :) . What do you mean about armor though? You mean I can use armor while shooting my bow but still not with spells right?

    In your suggestion with dual class in trilogy at lv7 or 9: I'm confused 😅. I either dual class at 7 starting out as a mage continue as fighter? Or start as a fighter and dual at 9 to mage? Did I get it right?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    if you are looking to make a fighter dual over to a mage, and you are going to import over to bg2, i would highly suggest dualling at a higher level than 3

    because as Very_BigSword said, your THAC0 is going to be trash and won't make up for the GM that you could get ( unless you are strictly just doing it so you can use any weapon )

    now, technically there is no reason to ever have a wizard pass level 29 - since they stop gaining spells pass this level within the level cap - ( unless you are doing it for dispel magic, but since a cleric can hit level 40, it even makes a wizard's level 31 dispel magic obsolete )

    so with that said, you have some XP you can throw into a first class and not miss out on ANY mage spells so with that, there are 2 good options;

    option 1, dual at level 7

    if you go with fighter 7, then dual over to mage, in BG1 ( without SoD ) you can actually hit level 8 in your mage class within the XP cap, granted you are going to be either 1/3 or halfway through the game to hit level 7, and you might need to be a bit of a completionist to hit that 8th level in your mage class, but it is doable ( i usually hit the XP cap in chapter 5, so plenty of time to utilize that combo ) this combo also makes it so you can get the best of both worlds for a decent amount of time and then when you hit SoA, you are kicking butt straight out of the gate with no down time

    option 2, dual at level 9

    now with this, you are going to have to stay a fighter for all of bg1 ( not including SoD ) because of the XP cap you are only going to hit level 8, now, if you have SoD, the new cap is 500k which will actuall allow you to hit level 9 in your fighter class, and by the end of SoD you can actually hit level 10 in your mage class to get your fighter abilities back, so kind of like bg1, in SoD you will have to stay a fighter halfway through, and then the last half you will be a mage but won't have the abilities of both classes until near the end of SoD, but if you can actually pull this off, and start BG 2 with this character, then you can start kicking butt again right out of the gate without having to worry about nothing

    now if you do not have SoD, not much to fret here, BG 2 has lots of XP for the early game, so it won't take long to hit that 500k mark, but you will be doing the same thing; gain enough XP to hit level 9, then dual over to mage, and keep climbing in XP ( you will just need 250k more ) and then hit level 10 mage, and voila, life is good

    now, a couple of caveats if you wish to really squeeze the best potential out of these dual classes....

    first as Very_BigSword said, longbows really lose their shine in BG2, but do you know what is an AMAZING ranged weapon? the throwing weapons, aka the throwing daggers/axes, ESPECIALLY if you have some STR pass 18, when i dual my fighters into mages that is what i do, unfortunately though, your proficiencies are going to be limited, so you need to be very careful to not "waste" any on level ups, so here is "one option on how you can do this" - if going the level 9 route - ;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 9; 5th point in dagger then dual over to mage
    mage level 1; 1 point in quarter staff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 250k XP mark
    skip to level 10; put that second point into quarterstaff

    now the reason why i use daggers and quarterstaves is because; the throwing daggers in BG 2 are an AMAZING weapons, and the quarterstaff proficiency is for the staff of the magi

    and then with further level ups you can put more points into staff, and at level 30 you can put that final point into two handed weapon style

    now, if you are going to do a level 7 fighter dual into mage, then this is how i would do it;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 7; dual over to mage first point in quarterstaff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 90k XP mark
    skip to level 8; put second point into quaterstaff

    and then once your mage hits level 12 you can put that final point into dagger, and then put the rest into quarterstaff

    now, with this all being said, basically on how you are going to build your figher/mage dual, you don't have to choose dagger and quarterstaff like me, but as i said before, your proficiency points are going to be limited, so basically i would suggest maxing out on the main weapon your fighter/mage is going to use ( usually for me that is a range weapon ) and then put the rest on the main secondary weapon, and that is basically going to be it

    PLUS the reason why i like to choose throwing daggers/axes as well is because you can be a kensai and get the extra to hit and to damage, so if you go the level 9 route, you will ACTUALLY be able to hit stuff, even in ToB and do some SERIOUS damage to baddies when you do, and luckily when your mage level surpasses your kensai level, you will be able to wear mage robes, cha-ching

    oh and to answer your other question;

    with any combo of fighter/mage ( whether dual or multi ) you can use any fighter weapon with no penalty to your mage side regardless of what armor you are wearing, but if you wear ANY armor that is not a robe, then you will not be able to cast any mage spells while doing so

    Kogomonicoilduderino
  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 174
    edited January 21
    Thanks @sarevok57 for the comprehensive answer and fixing my error (used XP amount for one level higher than the correct one).

    The dagger approach is optimal for ranged but there are drawbacks, mainly the need to fill many slots with throwing dagger stacks for ranged attacking in BG1.

    To the OP I would recommend sticking to your character concept which is certainly viable. No need to min/max everything. If it were me I would settle for the level 7 dual class because it is excellent "bang for buck" with an acceptable down time for your fighter abilities. Knowing what I do about BG2 weapons I would favour shortbow over longbow. But long bow is still fine so you can go with it. The real power is coming from your mage spellcasting anyway, missile attacks are mostly just filling in the space.

    *Regarding armour: bards, cleric/magi and fighter/magi can cast spells while wearing elven chain mail.

    sarevok57monico
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    edited January 21
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    if you are looking to make a fighter dual over to a mage, and you are going to import over to bg2, i would highly suggest dualling at a higher level than 3

    because as Very_BigSword said, your THAC0 is going to be trash and won't make up for the GM that you could get ( unless you are strictly just doing it so you can use any weapon )

    now, technically there is no reason to ever have a wizard pass level 29 - since they stop gaining spells pass this level within the level cap - ( unless you are doing it for dispel magic, but since a cleric can hit level 40, it even makes a wizard's level 31 dispel magic obsolete )

    so with that said, you have some XP you can throw into a first class and not miss out on ANY mage spells so with that, there are 2 good options;

    option 1, dual at level 7

    if you go with fighter 7, then dual over to mage, in BG1 ( without SoD ) you can actually hit level 8 in your mage class within the XP cap, granted you are going to be either 1/3 or halfway through the game to hit level 7, and you might need to be a bit of a completionist to hit that 8th level in your mage class, but it is doable ( i usually hit the XP cap in chapter 5, so plenty of time to utilize that combo ) this combo also makes it so you can get the best of both worlds for a decent amount of time and then when you hit SoA, you are kicking butt straight out of the gate with no down time

    option 2, dual at level 9

    now with this, you are going to have to stay a fighter for all of bg1 ( not including SoD ) because of the XP cap you are only going to hit level 8, now, if you have SoD, the new cap is 500k which will actuall allow you to hit level 9 in your fighter class, and by the end of SoD you can actually hit level 10 in your mage class to get your fighter abilities back, so kind of like bg1, in SoD you will have to stay a fighter halfway through, and then the last half you will be a mage but won't have the abilities of both classes until near the end of SoD, but if you can actually pull this off, and start BG 2 with this character, then you can start kicking butt again right out of the gate without having to worry about nothing

    now if you do not have SoD, not much to fret here, BG 2 has lots of XP for the early game, so it won't take long to hit that 500k mark, but you will be doing the same thing; gain enough XP to hit level 9, then dual over to mage, and keep climbing in XP ( you will just need 250k more ) and then hit level 10 mage, and voila, life is good

    now, a couple of caveats if you wish to really squeeze the best potential out of these dual classes....

    first as Very_BigSword said, longbows really lose their shine in BG2, but do you know what is an AMAZING ranged weapon? the throwing weapons, aka the throwing daggers/axes, ESPECIALLY if you have some STR pass 18, when i dual my fighters into mages that is what i do, unfortunately though, your proficiencies are going to be limited, so you need to be very careful to not "waste" any on level ups, so here is "one option on how you can do this" - if going the level 9 route - ;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 9; 5th point in dagger then dual over to mage
    mage level 1; 1 point in quarter staff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 250k XP mark
    skip to level 10; put that second point into quarterstaff

    now the reason why i use daggers and quarterstaves is because; the throwing daggers in BG 2 are an AMAZING weapons, and the quarterstaff proficiency is for the staff of the magi

    and then with further level ups you can put more points into staff, and at level 30 you can put that final point into two handed weapon style

    now, if you are going to do a level 7 fighter dual into mage, then this is how i would do it;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 7; dual over to mage first point in quarterstaff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 90k XP mark
    skip to level 8; put second point into quaterstaff

    and then once your mage hits level 12 you can put that final point into dagger, and then put the rest into quarterstaff

    now, with this all being said, basically on how you are going to build your figher/mage dual, you don't have to choose dagger and quarterstaff like me, but as i said before, your proficiency points are going to be limited, so basically i would suggest maxing out on the main weapon your fighter/mage is going to use ( usually for me that is a range weapon ) and then put the rest on the main secondary weapon, and that is basically going to be it

    PLUS the reason why i like to choose throwing daggers/axes as well is because you can be a kensai and get the extra to hit and to damage, so if you go the level 9 route, you will ACTUALLY be able to hit stuff, even in ToB and do some SERIOUS damage to baddies when you do, and luckily when your mage level surpasses your kensai level, you will be able to wear mage robes, cha-ching

    oh and to answer your other question;

    with any combo of fighter/mage ( whether dual or multi ) you can use any fighter weapon with no penalty to your mage side regardless of what armor you are wearing, but if you wear ANY armor that is not a robe, then you will not be able to cast any mage spells while doing so

    Thank you for a very comprehensive explanation. I'm not sure what you mean when you say stop growing up in levels at mage lv 5. Am I gonna collect on the xp til it hits 90 before clicking the lv up?

    It sounds awesome with your dagger flinging 😁 I still wanna do my thing though . My plan is to go longbows max and then leftover in short swords. Mainly because many runs I wish I could have made use of all those cool shortswords and I think I could benefit from holding them as a mage. With the effects. It might not be optimal but it's how I wanna roll this run :). I never played SoD before but this time I will. If I understood your post correctly im gonna dual at lv7. Thanks again.

    monicosarevok57
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Thanks @sarevok57 for the comprehensive answer and fixing my error (used XP amount for one level higher than the correct one).

    The dagger approach is optimal for ranged but there are drawbacks, mainly the need to fill many slots with throwing dagger stacks for ranged attacking in BG1.

    To the OP I would recommend sticking to your character concept which is certainly viable. No need to min/max everything. If it were me I would settle for the level 7 dual class because it is excellent "bang for buck" with an acceptable down time for your fighter abilities. Knowing what I do about BG2 weapons I would favour shortbow over longbow. But long bow is still fine so you can go with it. The real power is coming from your mage spellcasting anyway, missile attacks are mostly just filling in the space.

    *Regarding armour: bards, cleric/magi and fighter/magi can cast spells while wearing elven chain mail.

    Thanks man. I feel confident in my choice now.

    monico
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,723
    Kogo wrote: »
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    if you are looking to make a fighter dual over to a mage, and you are going to import over to bg2, i would highly suggest dualling at a higher level than 3

    because as Very_BigSword said, your THAC0 is going to be trash and won't make up for the GM that you could get ( unless you are strictly just doing it so you can use any weapon )

    now, technically there is no reason to ever have a wizard pass level 29 - since they stop gaining spells pass this level within the level cap - ( unless you are doing it for dispel magic, but since a cleric can hit level 40, it even makes a wizard's level 31 dispel magic obsolete )

    so with that said, you have some XP you can throw into a first class and not miss out on ANY mage spells so with that, there are 2 good options;

    option 1, dual at level 7

    if you go with fighter 7, then dual over to mage, in BG1 ( without SoD ) you can actually hit level 8 in your mage class within the XP cap, granted you are going to be either 1/3 or halfway through the game to hit level 7, and you might need to be a bit of a completionist to hit that 8th level in your mage class, but it is doable ( i usually hit the XP cap in chapter 5, so plenty of time to utilize that combo ) this combo also makes it so you can get the best of both worlds for a decent amount of time and then when you hit SoA, you are kicking butt straight out of the gate with no down time

    option 2, dual at level 9

    now with this, you are going to have to stay a fighter for all of bg1 ( not including SoD ) because of the XP cap you are only going to hit level 8, now, if you have SoD, the new cap is 500k which will actuall allow you to hit level 9 in your fighter class, and by the end of SoD you can actually hit level 10 in your mage class to get your fighter abilities back, so kind of like bg1, in SoD you will have to stay a fighter halfway through, and then the last half you will be a mage but won't have the abilities of both classes until near the end of SoD, but if you can actually pull this off, and start BG 2 with this character, then you can start kicking butt again right out of the gate without having to worry about nothing

    now if you do not have SoD, not much to fret here, BG 2 has lots of XP for the early game, so it won't take long to hit that 500k mark, but you will be doing the same thing; gain enough XP to hit level 9, then dual over to mage, and keep climbing in XP ( you will just need 250k more ) and then hit level 10 mage, and voila, life is good

    now, a couple of caveats if you wish to really squeeze the best potential out of these dual classes....

    first as Very_BigSword said, longbows really lose their shine in BG2, but do you know what is an AMAZING ranged weapon? the throwing weapons, aka the throwing daggers/axes, ESPECIALLY if you have some STR pass 18, when i dual my fighters into mages that is what i do, unfortunately though, your proficiencies are going to be limited, so you need to be very careful to not "waste" any on level ups, so here is "one option on how you can do this" - if going the level 9 route - ;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 9; 5th point in dagger then dual over to mage
    mage level 1; 1 point in quarter staff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 250k XP mark
    skip to level 10; put that second point into quarterstaff

    now the reason why i use daggers and quarterstaves is because; the throwing daggers in BG 2 are an AMAZING weapons, and the quarterstaff proficiency is for the staff of the magi

    and then with further level ups you can put more points into staff, and at level 30 you can put that final point into two handed weapon style

    now, if you are going to do a level 7 fighter dual into mage, then this is how i would do it;

    fighter level 1; 2 points in dagger, 2 single weapon style
    fighter level 3; 3rd point in dagger
    fighter level 6; 4th point in dagger
    fighter level 7; dual over to mage first point in quarterstaff
    mage level 5; STOP growing up in levels until you hit the 90k XP mark
    skip to level 8; put second point into quaterstaff

    and then once your mage hits level 12 you can put that final point into dagger, and then put the rest into quarterstaff

    now, with this all being said, basically on how you are going to build your figher/mage dual, you don't have to choose dagger and quarterstaff like me, but as i said before, your proficiency points are going to be limited, so basically i would suggest maxing out on the main weapon your fighter/mage is going to use ( usually for me that is a range weapon ) and then put the rest on the main secondary weapon, and that is basically going to be it

    PLUS the reason why i like to choose throwing daggers/axes as well is because you can be a kensai and get the extra to hit and to damage, so if you go the level 9 route, you will ACTUALLY be able to hit stuff, even in ToB and do some SERIOUS damage to baddies when you do, and luckily when your mage level surpasses your kensai level, you will be able to wear mage robes, cha-ching

    oh and to answer your other question;

    with any combo of fighter/mage ( whether dual or multi ) you can use any fighter weapon with no penalty to your mage side regardless of what armor you are wearing, but if you wear ANY armor that is not a robe, then you will not be able to cast any mage spells while doing so

    Thank you for a very comprehensive explanation. I'm not sure what you mean when you say stop growing up in levels at mage lv 5. Am I gonna collect on the xp til it hits 90 before clicking the lv up?

    That's it. The point being that you normally get a weapon proficiency point at mage level 6 - so if you level up you have to spend that point as a mage (and can't for instance put a second point into staffs). If you wait to level up until you exceed your fighter level as a mage, then you can spend that proficiency point as a fighter.

    Kogomonicosarevok57
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    edited January 21
    @Kogo one last thing to take into account before starting your build are kits.

    Seeing that you want to rely on grandmastery in Bows, there are alas no fighter kits that would be really helpful to you (well, the Wizard Slayer can master bows, but once you dual to mage, the restriction of the wizard slayer class will probably only hinder you).

    As the previous posters pointed out, Kensai dualed to mage is a strong strategy (but then, you can only rely on melee or thrown weapons, not bows).

    Berserker has the same melee-oriented factor, his Enrage ability is very helpful though (adds +2 thac0 on top of all the immunities, which helps for a low-level dual).

    But the main thing you have to take into account regarding kits is that you can NOT dual INTO a kit. Meaning that your fighter --> mage can only be a "normal" wizard, no specialist school, so you will lose 1 spell per day.

    This is also why gnomish fighter/illusionist is such a favoured class : more spells, better gnomish saving throws, and if you build it as a "spellsword" lookalike, the loss of Necromancy spells is not much of a tradeoff.

    The above probably won't change your choice, but for completion's sake, I just wanted to highlight those points.


    EDIT : one last thing, shortbows really are better than longbows overall:
    - in BG1 not so much : the best longbow imo is the Composite Longbow +1 you can buy in Beregost's Inn at lvl1 (+2thac0/+3dmg) whereas the best shortbow is in BG city (+2/+2)
    - in SoD there is a very good shortbow that improves your movement speed and has a chance to haste you each hit
    - in BG2: best longbow requires 19STR to wield and can be bought straight out of Irenicus Dungeon (+3/+3), but the awesome Tuigan Bow (+1/+1, but gives one more attack per round) easily surpasses it in overall damage output and is also available early (slaver's quest in the Copper Coronet) for free. The real seller though is the Gesen Bow (craftable by Cromwell, the Bow shaft is available early but the Bow String is only found in Spellhold's maze) which fires its own special ammunition that can hit as a +4 weapon. With a longbow, you won't be able to hit some enemies immune to +4 or more weapons (and even for those immune to +3 weapons, there are not many +3 arrows, requires careful management of ammunition)

    Kogosarevok57
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 687
    monico wrote: »
    This is also why gnomish fighter/illusionist is such a favoured class : more spells, better gnomish saving throws, and if you build it as a "spellsword" lookalike, the loss of Necromancy spells is not much of a tradeoff.
    This is a great choice for someone who is relatively new to the game: no downtime, no risk of user error, and no regret over the eventual loss of fighter HLAs.

    Fighter/mage duals are also strong but the main reasons to go that route are faster access to 9th level spells and a higher caster level. Grandmastery is nice but a bit over-hyped unless you're going to use cheats to give yourself so-called "true" grandmastery.

    monico
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    monico wrote: »
    @Kogo one last thing to take into account before starting your build are kits.

    Seeing that you want to rely on grandmastery in Bows, there are alas no fighter kits that would be really helpful to you (well, the Wizard Slayer can master bows, but once you dual to mage, the restriction of the wizard slayer class will probably only hinder you).

    As the previous posters pointed out, Kensai dualed to mage is a strong strategy (but then, you can only rely on melee or thrown weapons, not bows).

    Berserker has the same melee-oriented factor, his Enrage ability is very helpful though (adds +2 thac0 on top of all the immunities, which helps for a low-level dual).

    But the main thing you have to take into account regarding kits is that you can NOT dual INTO a kit. Meaning that your fighter --> mage can only be a "normal" wizard, no specialist school, so you will lose 1 spell per day.

    This is also why gnomish fighter/illusionist is such a favoured class : more spells, better gnomish saving throws, and if you build it as a "spellsword" lookalike, the loss of Necromancy spells is not much of a tradeoff.

    The above probably won't change your choice, but for completion's sake, I just wanted to highlight those points.


    EDIT : one last thing, shortbows really are better than longbows overall:
    - in BG1 not so much : the best longbow imo is the Composite Longbow +1 you can buy in Beregost's Inn at lvl1 (+2thac0/+3dmg) whereas the best shortbow is in BG city (+2/+2)
    - in SoD there is a very good shortbow that improves your movement speed and has a chance to haste you each hit
    - in BG2: best longbow requires 19STR to wield and can be bought straight out of Irenicus Dungeon (+3/+3), but the awesome Tuigan Bow (+1/+1, but gives one more attack per round) easily surpasses it in overall damage output and is also available early (slaver's quest in the Copper Coronet) for free. The real seller though is the Gesen Bow (craftable by Cromwell, the Bow shaft is available early but the Bow String is only found in Spellhold's maze) which fires its own special ammunition that can hit as a +4 weapon. With a longbow, you won't be able to hit some enemies immune to +4 or more weapons (and even for those immune to +3 weapons, there are not many +3 arrows, requires careful management of ammunition)

    After a lot of pondering I made the choice to go with a multiclass fmt. I chose longbows anyway just because I'm stubborn. Won't matter that much I figure casting spells mostly in the end. I like the many choices of shortswords in the game and gonna make use of them, mostly for their buffs and extra spells. If I change my mind later on I might do a dual fighter mage and skip bows altogether. Try some other weapons I never got to use before. I'm a bit disappointed there are no better bows! Really? Best one is in Irenicus dungeon 😯?

    monico
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    also, another tip, if you are adamant about going the longbow route, there are some ways on how to get "infinite ammo" for +2 or +3 arrows;

    first off, you are going to need gold, and quite a bit of it, but it doesnt take long in SoA to get lots and have nothing to spend on it

    then you need to find a vendor who has stacks of +2 arrows ( so for example i believe the storekeep above the shadow thief you are introduced to in chapter 2 has 3 stacks of 40 arrows +2 )

    make sure to never let a shopkeeper run out of arrows, aka buy out all their arrows*

    so with the above guy, you could buy 2 of his stacks, and then he will have 1 stack of 40 left, then sell him back those 80 arrows, and now he will have 81 stacks of +2 arrows, which will give you tons of arrows +2 for SoA, only 5% or so of enemies are still going to be immune to your arrows, but that is far and few between, so that is how you can make sure you have an unlimited supply of +2 arrows, some other vendors also have stacks of fire/acid arrows as well and you can do the same thing, so keep a look out, just make sure to never let a vendor get to low in their stacks and remember to sell back some arrows to fill their stacks back up

    and then in ToB no doubt the time you get there you will have a bajillion gold, and you can do the same thing with the +3 arrows, and off the top of my head there is only 3 enemies in ToB that require +4 or higher weapons, so +3 should keep you in good shape

    monicoKogo
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    Kogo wrote: »
    monico wrote: »
    @Kogo one last thing to take into account before starting your build are kits.

    Seeing that you want to rely on grandmastery in Bows, there are alas no fighter kits that would be really helpful to you (well, the Wizard Slayer can master bows, but once you dual to mage, the restriction of the wizard slayer class will probably only hinder you).

    As the previous posters pointed out, Kensai dualed to mage is a strong strategy (but then, you can only rely on melee or thrown weapons, not bows).

    Berserker has the same melee-oriented factor, his Enrage ability is very helpful though (adds +2 thac0 on top of all the immunities, which helps for a low-level dual).

    But the main thing you have to take into account regarding kits is that you can NOT dual INTO a kit. Meaning that your fighter --> mage can only be a "normal" wizard, no specialist school, so you will lose 1 spell per day.

    This is also why gnomish fighter/illusionist is such a favoured class : more spells, better gnomish saving throws, and if you build it as a "spellsword" lookalike, the loss of Necromancy spells is not much of a tradeoff.

    The above probably won't change your choice, but for completion's sake, I just wanted to highlight those points.


    EDIT : one last thing, shortbows really are better than longbows overall:
    - in BG1 not so much : the best longbow imo is the Composite Longbow +1 you can buy in Beregost's Inn at lvl1 (+2thac0/+3dmg) whereas the best shortbow is in BG city (+2/+2)
    - in SoD there is a very good shortbow that improves your movement speed and has a chance to haste you each hit
    - in BG2: best longbow requires 19STR to wield and can be bought straight out of Irenicus Dungeon (+3/+3), but the awesome Tuigan Bow (+1/+1, but gives one more attack per round) easily surpasses it in overall damage output and is also available early (slaver's quest in the Copper Coronet) for free. The real seller though is the Gesen Bow (craftable by Cromwell, the Bow shaft is available early but the Bow String is only found in Spellhold's maze) which fires its own special ammunition that can hit as a +4 weapon. With a longbow, you won't be able to hit some enemies immune to +4 or more weapons (and even for those immune to +3 weapons, there are not many +3 arrows, requires careful management of ammunition)

    After a lot of pondering I made the choice to go with a multiclass fmt. I chose longbows anyway just because I'm stubborn. Won't matter that much I figure casting spells mostly in the end. I like the many choices of shortswords in the game and gonna make use of them, mostly for their buffs and extra spells. If I change my mind later on I might do a dual fighter mage and skip bows altogether. Try some other weapons I never got to use before. I'm a bit disappointed there are no better bows! Really? Best one is in Irenicus dungeon 😯?

    outside of irenicus' dungeon at the adventurer's mart, its called strong arm

    monicoKogo
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    Kogo wrote: »
    After a lot of pondering I made the choice to go with a multiclass fmt. I chose longbows anyway just because I'm stubborn. Won't matter that much I figure casting spells mostly in the end. I like the many choices of shortswords in the game and gonna make use of them, mostly for their buffs and extra spells. If I change my mind later on I might do a dual fighter mage and skip bows altogether. Try some other weapons I never got to use before. I'm a bit disappointed there are no better bows! Really? Best one is in Irenicus dungeon 😯?

    Very good choice, you have more versatility, this character can do almost everything and it's very powerful. Plus, by character creation you will already have max specialisation in longbows and shortswords.
    About longbows/shortbows, both are good weapons, don't worry, I was just giving a full advice so you won't be surprised. As @sarevok57 pointed out, there are barely a handful of enemies immune to +3 weapons.

    About weapons in general, the FMT progresses slowly in proficiency points because of the shared XP between 3 classes (he gets 1 new proficiency every 3 fighter levels).
    By the end of BG1, you'll have 2 new proficiencies. You can put them in 2 weapon-fighting style (the 3rd is almost pointless by metagaming standarts) if you want to go that route, or instead start diversifying your weapons (I'd suggest at some point starting to put points in a blunt weapon, like maces, flails, hammers).
    Be aware though that if you go the 2 weapon fighting route, you will only have 2 more proficiency points to master a new weapon when you hit Fighter lvl12, which requires 3 million XP in total for the FMT.

    So, plan your proficiencies beforehand. Mainly, choose right away if you want to start investing in 2 weapon fighting or not.
    I'd suggest you do it though, there is a shortsword in BG2 who gives you +1 APR to your mainhand, once you get access to Improved Haste, you will deliver so many blows per round that enemies won't even understand what happened to them. But that is a different playstyle than Archer or magic-nuker from the back, which you seemed to prefer for this run.

    Last question though: do you plan to play solo or with a group ? A FMT shines in solo/small groups, so that his shared XP doesn't slow his progression, so try and keep your party at 3 max (you already cover all the basic roles with just one character anyway) for a good pace of leveling.

    Kogo
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    monico wrote: »
    Kogo wrote: »
    After a lot of pondering I made the choice to go with a multiclass fmt. I chose longbows anyway just because I'm stubborn. Won't matter that much I figure casting spells mostly in the end. I like the many choices of shortswords in the game and gonna make use of them, mostly for their buffs and extra spells. If I change my mind later on I might do a dual fighter mage and skip bows altogether. Try some other weapons I never got to use before. I'm a bit disappointed there are no better bows! Really? Best one is in Irenicus dungeon 😯?

    Very good choice, you have more versatility, this character can do almost everything and it's very powerful. Plus, by character creation you will already have max specialisation in longbows and shortswords.
    About longbows/shortbows, both are good weapons, don't worry, I was just giving a full advice so you won't be surprised. As @sarevok57 pointed out, there are barely a handful of enemies immune to +3 weapons.

    About weapons in general, the FMT progresses slowly in proficiency points because of the shared XP between 3 classes (he gets 1 new proficiency every 3 fighter levels).
    By the end of BG1, you'll have 2 new proficiencies. You can put them in 2 weapon-fighting style (the 3rd is almost pointless by metagaming standarts) if you want to go that route, or instead start diversifying your weapons (I'd suggest at some point starting to put points in a blunt weapon, like maces, flails, hammers).
    Be aware though that if you go the 2 weapon fighting route, you will only have 2 more proficiency points to master a new weapon when you hit Fighter lvl12, which requires 3 million XP in total for the FMT.

    So, plan your proficiencies beforehand. Mainly, choose right away if you want to start investing in 2 weapon fighting or not.
    I'd suggest you do it though, there is a shortsword in BG2 who gives you +1 APR to your mainhand, once you get access to Improved Haste, you will deliver so many blows per round that enemies won't even understand what happened to them. But that is a different playstyle than Archer or magic-nuker from the back, which you seemed to prefer for this run.

    Last question though: do you plan to play solo or with a group ? A FMT shines in solo/small groups, so that his shared XP doesn't slow his progression, so try and keep your party at 3 max (you already cover all the basic roles with just one character anyway) for a good pace of leveling.

    I'm not sure I understand about proficiency.. Won't I be putting 3rd - 5th straight away in bows? Or is it bound to that higher levels? I put 2 each in sw and bows now. How many points will I be getting total?

    I plan on having a full party, mainly because I like their company and dialogue :) this is actually a big question for me which characters to go with. I played a lot with minsc, jaheira, khalid, xan and the red mage so far. I think this time I wanna try Neera, Viconia, monk-guy.. then im not sure. This in bg1 btw. I really like Jaheira but maybe wont use her until bg2.

    Thanks for the insights so far its been helpful. I started the run and made it to friendly arms in. Now I need a plan for my party.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    if you are going to have neera, viconia and rasaad on the team, then i dont think you will need jaheira ( viconia can fill this role )

    perhaps kivan for another melee warrior? he has good DEX and can actually hold up in melee pretty good, you can skill him with longsword and he will get a bonus to hit because he is an elf and then eventually give him the gauntlets of ogre power for some serious hitting power, the only thing is though, he will kind of rush you to go off to the bandit camp, so if you bring him along you are going to be going fast pace through the nashkiel mines and then right over to the bandit camp

    another melee character you can try is anjantis north of the FAI, he will need to use the gloves of dex to get his horrible dex up, but once done, he can hold his own, although one thing is he might have conflicts with viconia since he is a paladin and viconia is an evil drow

    if you need another substitute for viconia you can either bring jaheira around again, or get branwen from the naskiel fair ( she is the stone statue that needs a scroll of stone to flesh used on her, you can buy one from the naskiel temple for way cheaper than what Zeke offers )


    as for proficiency you have to be careful on the mage side, once you hit mage ( i dont know what level you are going to dual over to ) you will NOT be able to place proficiency points into fighter weapons until your mage level surpasses your fighter level

    that is why if for example you are going to do fighter 7 -> mage

    no doubt do 4 points in longbow and have your 3 points in short sword

    when you fighter hits level 7, you are going to dual over to a mage, and then you will have 1 point to choose a mage weapon to put in; dart, dagger, quarterstaff, sling ( i suggest sling to keep your character out of melee )

    but then once you hit level 6, you will NOT be able to place another point into your fighter weapons yet, because your mage has not surpassed your fighter level, so then you will be wasting that precious proficiency point another mage weapon ( so if you chose sling earlier ) then you will only be able to do; dagger, dart or quarterstaff

    that is why its imperative that once your mage level hits 5, you stop leveling your mage up, until you reach the 90 000 XP mark so you can directly skip to level 8, this will make it so you can place that proficiency point into short swords instead of a garbage mage weapon

    *note, if you use the above tactic and skip to level 8, the reason why you will not be able to place that point into longbows is because your level has to be at least level 9, so since you will not be level 9 in BG 1 you will have to place that proficiency in short swords ( although it won't be a complete waste since that will be the 3rd point you have for short swords )

    and then once you hit level 12 in your mage class you will be able to max out longbow

    *now another note;

    if you plan on playing SoD, what you CAN do, if you are really patient and don't mind having a level 5 mage forever in BG 1, you can keep your mage level at 5 all the way until SoD and once you hit the 135 000 XP mark, then grow up a level, this will make it so you skip to level 9 ( instead of 8 ) and then you will be able to place that last proficiency in longbow

    the choice is yours, but to be honest in the long run, whether you place that last point at level 9 or 12, it would be earth shattering

    just make sure to not grow to level 6 in your mage class unless you don't mind wasting that proficiency point

    and also to take note, mages gain proficiency points very slowly ( once every 6 levels ) that is why its quite imperative that you don't waste those points if you don't need to, because once your mage hits level 8 or 9 you will get another point at level 12,18,24 and then 30 ( and thats IF you even HIT level 30 in ToB ) so thats 2 points in BG 2 and 1 or 2 points in ToB

    Kogo
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    if you are going to have neera, viconia and rasaad on the team, then i dont think you will need jaheira ( viconia can fill this role )

    perhaps kivan for another melee warrior? he has good DEX and can actually hold up in melee pretty good, you can skill him with longsword and he will get a bonus to hit because he is an elf and then eventually give him the gauntlets of ogre power for some serious hitting power, the only thing is though, he will kind of rush you to go off to the bandit camp, so if you bring him along you are going to be going fast pace through the nashkiel mines and then right over to the bandit camp

    another melee character you can try is anjantis north of the FAI, he will need to use the gloves of dex to get his horrible dex up, but once done, he can hold his own, although one thing is he might have conflicts with viconia since he is a paladin and viconia is an evil drow

    if you need another substitute for viconia you can either bring jaheira around again, or get branwen from the naskiel fair ( she is the stone statue that needs a scroll of stone to flesh used on her, you can buy one from the naskiel temple for way cheaper than what Zeke offers )


    as for proficiency you have to be careful on the mage side, once you hit mage ( i dont know what level you are going to dual over to ) you will NOT be able to place proficiency points into fighter weapons until your mage level surpasses your fighter level

    that is why if for example you are going to do fighter 7 -> mage

    no doubt do 4 points in longbow and have your 3 points in short sword

    when you fighter hits level 7, you are going to dual over to a mage, and then you will have 1 point to choose a mage weapon to put in; dart, dagger, quarterstaff, sling ( i suggest sling to keep your character out of melee )

    but then once you hit level 6, you will NOT be able to place another point into your fighter weapons yet, because your mage has not surpassed your fighter level, so then you will be wasting that precious proficiency point another mage weapon ( so if you chose sling earlier ) then you will only be able to do; dagger, dart or quarterstaff

    that is why its imperative that once your mage level hits 5, you stop leveling your mage up, until you reach the 90 000 XP mark so you can directly skip to level 8, this will make it so you can place that proficiency point into short swords instead of a garbage mage weapon

    *note, if you use the above tactic and skip to level 8, the reason why you will not be able to place that point into longbows is because your level has to be at least level 9, so since you will not be level 9 in BG 1 you will have to place that proficiency in short swords ( although it won't be a complete waste since that will be the 3rd point you have for short swords )

    and then once you hit level 12 in your mage class you will be able to max out longbow

    *now another note;

    if you plan on playing SoD, what you CAN do, if you are really patient and don't mind having a level 5 mage forever in BG 1, you can keep your mage level at 5 all the way until SoD and once you hit the 135 000 XP mark, then grow up a level, this will make it so you skip to level 9 ( instead of 8 ) and then you will be able to place that last proficiency in longbow

    the choice is yours, but to be honest in the long run, whether you place that last point at level 9 or 12, it would be earth shattering

    just make sure to not grow to level 6 in your mage class unless you don't mind wasting that proficiency point

    and also to take note, mages gain proficiency points very slowly ( once every 6 levels ) that is why its quite imperative that you don't waste those points if you don't need to, because once your mage hits level 8 or 9 you will get another point at level 12,18,24 and then 30 ( and thats IF you even HIT level 30 in ToB ) so thats 2 points in BG 2 and 1 or 2 points in ToB

    I haven't played around with those characters much. Which ones would you suggest for more dialogue and side-quests? Kivan sounds like a fun choice.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    with kivan he has banter with tazok and makes tazok hostile which is always fun

    branwen has banter with tranzig

    although even though they have banters with those 2 NPCs its not very much

    neera, dorn and rasaad or the only joinable companions that have "big side quests per se"

    neera's is alright, dorn's is actually pretty good, although i've never done rasaad's quest, but during his you can get a belt that sets your STR to 19 and INT to 6 which is great for weak fighters

    my suggestion, just take who you want, and if you haven't used them before, all the better, more fun when you've never tried a joinable companion before

    Kogo
  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    As a fighter/mage/thief, am I limited to a certain number of spells known? In case so can I remove spells known?

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 687
    FMT spellbooks have exactly the same capacity that FM or M spellbooks do.

    Kogosarevok57
  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 174
    Kogo wrote: »
    As a fighter/mage/thief, am I limited to a certain number of spells known? In case so can I remove spells known?

    Your intelligence stat determines how many spells of each "spell level" can be known. You can delete known spells from your book if you have already learned the maximum and want to swap a bad spell for a better one.

    Your experience level in the mage class determines how many spells of each "spell level" you can memorise.

    sarevok57Kogo
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,723
    Kogo wrote: »
    As a fighter/mage/thief, am I limited to a certain number of spells known? In case so can I remove spells known?

    Your intelligence stat determines how many spells of each "spell level" can be known. You can delete known spells from your book if you have already learned the maximum and want to swap a bad spell for a better one.

    While that's true, the check is against current intelligence and not your base stat. Therefore you can also take potions of genius or mind focusing to remove any limit on learning spells - and you keep those spells even after your intelligence has dropped again. In practice therefore, having a low intelligence mage need actually only be a minor handicap.

  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Kogo wrote: »
    As a fighter/mage/thief, am I limited to a certain number of spells known? In case so can I remove spells known?

    Your intelligence stat determines how many spells of each "spell level" can be known. You can delete known spells from your book if you have already learned the maximum and want to swap a bad spell for a better one.

    Your experience level in the mage class determines how many spells of each "spell level" you can memorise.

    Thats comforting to hear!

  • KogoKogo Member Posts: 33
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Kogo wrote: »
    As a fighter/mage/thief, am I limited to a certain number of spells known? In case so can I remove spells known?

    Your intelligence stat determines how many spells of each "spell level" can be known. You can delete known spells from your book if you have already learned the maximum and want to swap a bad spell for a better one.

    While that's true, the check is against current intelligence and not your base stat. Therefore you can also take potions of genius or mind focusing to remove any limit on learning spells - and you keep those spells even after your intelligence has dropped again. In practice therefore, having a low intelligence mage need actually only be a minor handicap.

    What?! Suddenly those potions are seen in a new light :) thanks!

    Grond0
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