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Ludonarrative dissonance - The greatest overlooked SIN

SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
edited February 2020 in Off-Topic
Ludonarrative dissonance is when the game mechanics doesn't reflect the game world and lore

According to a user on RPG codex "Trash mobs are bad, trashtext is bad, but here's what you people are REALLY overlooking: disconnection between in-game narrative/setting/"lore" and actual gameplay mechanics. " https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-real-overlooked-sin-in-rpgs-disconnect-between-narrative-and-mechanics.131091/

Here a youtuber explains what is



2:00 - He explain the origin of the therm. With BioShock. That you can be selfish in gameplay choice but not on story
5:00 - he mentions Lara Croft story and gameplay being completely different. Lara seens more akin to a professional hitwoman in the gameplay and fragile in story
7:30 - He explains that Gothic 1 is one of the best example of game mechanics reflecting world's lore. You can't even swing a weapon properly at the start. You start the game swinging a weapon like a generic anime protagonist. Then when you pay for someone to teach you how to use a weapon and then your stance and animation changes to something more historically accurate. A fantasy game can be consistent and have mechanics and narrative connected.
10:30 - he mentions GTA as a game with consistency between mechanics and game. But mentions that MP has the Ludonarrative dissonance problem.

If you look to VtMB, the game mechanics and lore are well connected.

For example, A Nosferatu being cursed with deformity can't even proper talk to a prostitute while a Ventrue can convince her to be his blood doll for free. Have apparence and seduction capped at 0 makes the game extremely rare and the player relegated to underground sewers.

Gothic is another example of game with high consistency of narrative and lore. The game established that magic is hard to learn BUT not only on story. On G1, to fully maximize magic, you will need 245 LP (140 LP for circles -> 10+15+20+25+30+40 and 95 for mana) Or 25 levels investing into pure magic to maximize your circles and mana. A warrior in other hands, can maximize his STR with 90 LP and maximize one handed with 30 LP(10 + 20) or with 120 LP. Considering that each LV up require more XP, fully mastery of arcane arts can take more than 3x the time required to master melee arts. And it makes sense. In a penal colony where the strongest magicians are stuck inside, there are exactly ONE guy who managed to learn circle 6(Xardas).

Compare it with Pillars of Eternity a game that explicit says that magic is complicated and most magicians are scholars BUt you can create a low INT wizard... Most modern games have a huge disconnect between game and world's lore/narrative. On Morrowind, slave masters forced their slaves to use a bracer who drains magicka. On skyrim, people don't use it on magical able prisoners making breaking out a prison extremely easy if you have magic.
Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
BelgarathMTHsarevok57Rik_KirtaniyaBalrog99Isewein

Comments

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    One thing that i particularly don't like about modern games is that they don't care about ludonarrative dissonance...

    On DA:O, you can use blood magic in front of Templars and nothing happens. Despite the game stipulating that blood magic i one of the worst taboos in the world. On DA:I, literally in one of the first dialog options is that "i don't need a staff to be deadly" and all spells scale with you weapon in game. In that case, the game is contradicting completely the lore. No, not just a single dialog. If mages are dependent on staff, why have a strict control over then? Just control their staves since their spells are nothing without a weapon. In VtMB for eg, unarmed attacks and disciplines doesn't scale with your gear at all, and if you use blood magic(thaumaturgy) in front of mortals, is a masquarede breach and it has consequences.
    Balrog99Isewein
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,366
    @SorcererV1ct0r

    I love your views on the current state of CRPG's and totally agree. Unfortunately, for every person like you and I who would totally love the type of CRPG you envision, there are ten people like my dad who 'just want to fight shit'. The major companies developing RPG's these days are far more concerned with sales than with believability or realistic mechanics. Sadly, other than starting your own company, or somebody else developing a game with less emphasis on 'sales', I don't see a way out of this dilemma. Developers even dumbed down the Heroes of Might & Magic series to the point where I lost interest, let alone what has happened to CRPG's since Baldur's Gate 2. I'm hoping I'll enjoy BG3 when it comes out, but I'm not holding my breath...
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    (...) 'just want to fight shit'. The major companies developing RPG's these days are far more concerned with sales than with believability or realistic mechanics. Sadly, other than starting your own company, or somebody else developing a game with less emphasis on 'sales', I don't see a way out of this dilemma. Developers even dumbed down the Heroes of Might & Magic series to the point where I lost interest, let alone what has happened to CRPG's since Baldur's Gate 2. I'm hoping I'll enjoy BG3 when it comes out, but I'm not holding my breath...

    Look to SCL(sword coast legends) and compare to PF:KM...


    The focus on balance and acessibility is destroying RPG's. But there are exceptions.

    Dark/Demon Souls is a console game, Japanese game, modern game and is a masterpiece on having mechanics reflecting the world lore. Even the respawn have a lore explanation. If you hit the enemy with a polleaxe, depeding the part of the weapon that hit(more close to the axehead = more damage) and the game is amazing.

    The unique problem of the series is not the series itself is a small part of the community that wanna impose their boring way to play. They have fun playing without armor, magic, polearms, shield etc and only a sword and wanna impose it to everyone(you don't see the same BS on other communities, you don't see people advocating that the unique way to play FNV is to play hardcore, without armor, using a .22 LR and .38 Special revolver only and FNV would be far harder than any souls game that way BTW)

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Dragon age really did this with magic as the series progressed. It started out that mages were awesomely powerful and extremely feared. I remember the first time in Origins I got hit with a fireball and my whole party was knocked down and on fire. I was completely shocked. Sure you could pull off crazy powerful stuff with your mage in that first game, but so could enemy mages. Each game in the series, the magic got weaker and weaker, so now they're just a generic class. Why are people scared of mages again when any guy with a couple daggers can destroy them? When the demon crap happens now, it just feels like plot device ho.
    Balrog99ThacoBellIsewein
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Dragon age really did this with magic as the series progressed. It started out that mages were awesomely powerful and extremely feared. I remember the first time in Origins I got hit with a fireball and my whole party was knocked down and on fire. I was completely shocked. Sure you could pull off crazy powerful stuff with your mage in that first game, but so could enemy mages. Each game in the series, the magic got weaker and weaker, so now they're just a generic class. Why are people scared of mages again when any guy with a couple daggers can destroy them? When the demon crap happens now, it just feels like plot device ho.

    Even Origins, i found magic system average. No, not only due the cooldowns and the fact that you can use blood magic in front of templars and nobody cares but the mana potions.

    "Very early in DA:O you're told that mages need their mana potions and some get addicted to the stuff, become druggies and shit. You also uncover that even some Templars get hooked and become dirty cops, helping mages smuggle magical cocaine. Sure, great premise, I like it! Except...you can have as many mages in your party and mana management will never lead to addiction, legal troubles or anything of the sort. The narrative and the gameplay exist in different realities. " https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-real-overlooked-sin-in-rpgs-disconnect-between-narrative-and-mechanics.131091/

    In therms of portraying the fantasy of a blood magician, VtMB 1 - Tremere is much better than DA:O. In therms of the mechanic and narrative being better linked, the fact that people react to your can since the tutorial and in the cool factor

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Ya, they didn't do a great job in Origins with the mana potions or reactivity to waving blood magic around. I'm much more irked that it's gotten less fun and interesting to play a mage across the games as the series has gone one. Inquisition and ME:Andromeda were such a mess, I'm probably off Bioware games forever.

    You should see how awesome blood magic is in the table top version of Vampire. There's a huge amount of paths and rituals that make Bloodlines seem like a weak interpretation. Still, doing a ritual that requires nearly a full night's work every day for a cycle of the moon isn't that fun in a video game, but it would have been fun to pick people up and drop them with movement of the mind or throw fire with lure of flames. Some of the paths get really esoteric, like the Path of Corruption, which can really mess with social situations and intentions.
    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited February 2020
    Ya, they didn't do a great job in Origins with the mana potions or reactivity to waving blood magic around. I'm much more irked that it's gotten less fun and interesting to play a mage across the games as the series has gone one. Inquisition and ME:Andromeda were such a mess, I'm probably off Bioware games forever.
    .

    Yep. On DA:I, mages are far worst. Not only you have way more cooldowns and way less and less interesting skills with much less impactful magic that is consequenceless BUT the game makes every spell scale with your weapon despite one of the dialog options on the beginning of the game being "i don't need a staff to be deadly". And why have a strict control over the mages if they need their weapons? Control their weapons.

    Other thing that pisses me off is the """necromancy"""" on DA:I, literally the WORST iteration of necromancy that i saw in my life. Is just CC spiritualist. Necromancy should be about creating, manipulating and commanding the (un)dead and necrotic energies. Just like pyromancy should be about creating, manipulating and controlling the fire. If Dark Souls Pyromancer had only the "poison/toxic mist" skills, it would be silly and fell more like a "smokemancer", would be the worst iteration of pyromancer that i saw in my life in par with the DA:I """necromancer""".

    And things are worst when you consider that they took away blood magic, one of the most unique things to put this specialization. As for blood magic on WoD P&P, some rituals and spells are near impossible to translate to CRPG, but blood magic on VtMB is fun and engaging. As for rituals, you can put rituals as a multi stage quest involving seeking people to help, ingredients, etc.

    One game that is amazing in making the world and the lore being linked and has amazing minion mechanics is GENEFORGE.
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