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How overpowered can you get in BG:EE?

What are you favorite OP builds in the first game? And more specifically how broken can you make a rogue?

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  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,192
    Rogue? Fighter/Thief with boots of haste is some classic cheese. Nothing too complex. You just backstab the enemy, run away before they can do anything, stealth again and come in for another backstab.

    Like it's probably not the most gamebreaking thing on paper, but at the same time almost nobody in BG1 can do anything to stop you. You just backstab with impunity.

    ThacoBellTacticalTruthmonico
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,058
    well in the first game, multi class characters are super strong because technically they will only be 1 level behind to be 2 "full" classes, plus a multiclass cleric can still get level 4 spells ( unfortunately a mage can't get level 5 spells unless you play SoD, but can still get level 4 in BG1 )

    also when it comes to OP builds, no combo stands out compared to the rest ( in ToB you can narrow it down better because of higher levels but in BG 1 there are quite a bit of ties )

    for straight up warrior types;
    half-orc berserkers, dish out the best damage, and can have great AC, that enrage ability is just so damn good, makes up for their crappy saving throw weakness by being immune to everything annoying and the AC/to hit/to damage bonus, so good, plus the OP fact that half-orcs can have 19 STR and CON is just so damn good especially for BG 1 standards, another thing that is great about half-orc berserkers is that for the most part you dont need to micro manage or buff up to win fights, you can just enrage ( against harder enemies, because weaker ones you won't need to, and even then some hard enemies you can easily take out without using enrage, they are just that good ) and then just let them loose, no such luck with a blade

    dwarven defenders are great at taking damage, infact, they are the best at doing so with huge damage resistance and great saves, but lack a little bit in the offensive department ( compared to a half-orc berserker )

    cleric types;
    multi-class works best here ( in SoA/ToB dual class wins but this is BG1 we're talking ) and again we go back to either half orc for serious hitting power ( although saves not as great ) or we can go dwarf and have amazing saves but be a bit shy in the AC/ to hit/ to damage department compared to half-orcs, although DuHM can make up for this, but its up to you how much buffing you like doing, for me, i dont like rolling abilities scores for 10 years to get a STR above 18/91+ for my fighter/cleric when a halforc right out of the gate can just have a whopping 19 with no muss or fuss, so up to you which is better

    thief type;
    so many ways to play a thief, but in my opinion, making them archers are my favourite way of doing things, now if we are doing archery i believe the best would be human fighter 7, dual over to thief 9, but we have to be careful to get that last proficiency point, so first we crank out longbow for 4 points, then at level 7 dual over to thief, and keep growing up levels till we hit level 7, then once we have enough XP to skip to level 9, we can put that 5th point into longbow, and with our 19 DEX ( thanks to the DEX tome ) we will have some serious to hit power and dish out some crazy damage ( almost as much as an archer would do ) and in BG1 bows are super strong, and if you have a good archer type, they can completely tear it up from long range

    mage type;
    again so many options, but in the end, we can bring it down to two; enchanters or fighter/mages, in bg1, the enchanter is by far the best class because all their crowd control spells are powerful as hell, plus enemies get even more penalties to their saves, AND an enchanters spells are party friendly, no need to micromanage party members to protect them from your crowd controlling, because a held enemy is a dead enemy, and something great about charming foes ( especially casters ) is that for warrior types you can force them to use their fist ( if they are a "playable" character ) so then you can get some better combat bonuses on them, or if they are a caster make them cast all their good spells on your team, and then equip fist and make them cast their best offensive spell on them self to make them easier to take out

    or

    the elf fighter/mage, this only works though if you can get that strength up nice and high, im talking 18/91+ because the thing that is great about this is; once you run out of spells you can actually do something with a weapon, i prefer throwing axes ( thanks to the +2 throwing axe in candlekeep dungeon ) which gives you "infinite" ammo and with a nice STR score you can actually dish out some damage, and with a nifty 19 DEX you can actually hit things, pretty spectacular, mages may be strong with spells, but cant do jack squat against magic resistance/immune enemies, that is where the fighter part comes in


    so with that all being said, what do we have? if you want to make a team that will crush the sword coast in bg1 without a muss of fuss and with as little need to micromanage and screw around with buffing, i would go this route;

    x3 half-orc berserkers ( 19 STR 18 DEX 19 CON ) and skill two of them with scimitar and one with longsword ( so then you can use drizzt's beautiful weapons and whoever is going to use the longsword +2 make sure they get the STR tome ) if you everything correctly item wise, each of these guys should be able to hit -9 AC without buffs and have some serious to hit/to damage power

    half-orc fighter/cleric using sling ( 19 STR 18 DEX 19 CON 18 WIS ) this is a no brainer; give all the WIS tomes to this CHAR and the ring of holiness, and this cleric will have even more spells than branwen or viconia would have even though they can grow to a higher level, then give this character the sling +3 and some bullets +2 and completely destroy worlds from long range, plus if you give this character kiel's buckler that will give you an unbuffed 19 DEX for some serious hitting power, if im not mistaken you should be able to get your thac0 down to around 5 or 4, and your sling bullets should be able to do close to 20 damage per hit, wowzers

    human fighter7/thief9 ( 18/xx STR 18 DEX 18 CON ) luckily the best bow in the game is in beregost so grab that composite longbow +1 crank those proficiencies in longbow and give the tome of DEX to this character, and get ready for someone who is going to annihilate enemies from the back, with those crazy attacks per round enemies wont be able to stand a chance, especially when critical hits can do up to 30 damage

    and finally our elf fighter/mage ( 18/91+ STR, 19 DEX, 17 CON, 18 INT ) spells are great, but once they run out, you will be using your handy dandy trusty throwing weapons, aka throwing axes, luckily the blacksmith in beregost sells +1 versions of throwing axes and using the handy dandy buy stacks and sell them back exploit you can buy in theory "infinite" throwing axes, and they are also dirt cheap ( plus there is so much easy money in BG 1 it shouldn't be a worry anyway ) this will make it so your mage doesn't miss out on the to hit/ to damage department when it comes to weapon combat, because when your regular ol' mage finishes their spells they can only resort to inconsequencial dart or sling attacks, but here, your mage will actually be able to hit things and actually be able to damage things, especially with nice STR, absolutely killer

    and the best part about this combo is that again, the micromanaging and buffing is an all time low, because everyone is just kicking ass right out of the gate, and yet you still get all your cleric, thief and mage needs for those really sticky situations

    and if you think this team is OP as hell we can do better for SoA/ToB....

    MERLANCEStummvonBordwehrTacticalTruthGrond0
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 732
    edited March 11
    I would echo @sarevok57 that the answer to this question depends on whether you're doing a BG1-only run or playing through the entire saga.

    For BG1 a 19 strength is probably the most OP character creation decision you can make. So half-orc fighter/clerics, fighter/thieves, or berserkers will be super-strong. Though an 18/00 strength fighter/mage is an even better choice power-wise as he can protect himself with mage buffs and disable enemies with sleep. Or you can go with an 18/00 strength fighter/mage/thief if you're looking for versatility as well as power.

    But if you have even the remotest thought you might take the character into BG2, where strength-boosting items and spells are plentiful, I'd jettison all the half-orc ideas and go with either a kitted fighter dual or a half-elf fighter/mage/thief which remains the game's most versatile character throughout the saga.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,843
    edited March 11
    Archers are pretty kick-ass in BG1. They get bonus to ranged attacks and can achieve grandmastery in longbows, shortbows and crossbows, which really shines until Throne of Bhaal (and is still useful even then for all but the toughest bosses). They also have stealth. Handy if you're playing solo or use a more tactical battle strategy. If you play an elf they'll even get a hit bonus with bows and a little stealth bonus to boot.

    Edit: In BG1 you can only get to mastery in bows/crossbows but still better than anything but a vanilla fighter (a human used to be able to achieve grandmaster in BG1 by dualing from fighter to thief but I'm not sure that's possible in the EE).

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,058
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Archers are pretty kick-ass in BG1. They get bonus to ranged attacks and can achieve grandmastery in longbows, shortbows and crossbows, which really shines until Throne of Bhaal (and is still useful even then for all but the toughest bosses). They also have stealth. Handy if you're playing solo or use a more tactical battle strategy. If you play an elf they'll even get a hit bonus with bows and a little stealth bonus to boot.

    Edit: In BG1 you can only get to mastery in bows/crossbows but still better than anything but a vanilla fighter (a human used to be able to achieve grandmaster in BG1 by dualing from fighter to thief but I'm not sure that's possible in the EE).

    ooooo its possible, it just requires a little bit of trickery that is all, see my above post :)

    Balrog99
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 475
    To correct an earlier post: you can't be a fighter 7/thief 9. That would require 64K + 110K XP, exceeding the 161K XP cap in BGEE (without SoD). If you want to grandmaster a weapon, you need to be a fighter 6/thief 9, and to level up from thief 7 to thief 9 in one step. The game won't let you take the fifth dot if your level in the active class is lower than 9.

    For thieves, dual or multi classes are generally the way to go. A pure thief just doesn't have as many options as a combination with another class, and you'll have more skill points than you know what to do with in the long run anyway.

    For direct combat or backstabbing, build a fighter/thief. The strongest general-purpose backstab build is a fighter (berserker) 6/thief 9 dual class, with grandmastery in a melee weapon as outlined above and a focus on stealth skills. Equip them with boots of speed and a good weapon, and you're good to go. How much damage can you do? Using the +3 staff and Legacy of the Masters gauntlets with two-handed style, that's 48-68 + strength damage on a backstab, or more if you enrage.
    Now, if you're planning to continue your character into BG2, this becomes much less attractive. You're better off waiting until level 7 (an extra half-attack), level 9 (easy grandmastery and minimal downtime), or level 13 (maximum long-term power) to dual-class in that case. Also, going with kensai or wizard slayer kits becomes much more attractive with the promise of eventually wiping out their drawbacks.
    A fighter/thief multiclass is simpler to build and can get amazing saves as a dwarf or halfling, but they lose a bit of damage potential by being limited to specialization. Also, they only hit thief level 8 at the BG1 cap, for 3x backstabs instead of 4x. The multiclass, with the same equipment I noted above, ends up at only 27-42 + strength backstab damage.

    A thief/mage meshes very well; there's a reason BG2 gives you multiple options in this category. Going dual-class thief into mage effectively gives you a full-powered (generalist) mage with a better weapon selection and some utility thief skills, as seen with Imoen's BG2 incarnation. The multiclass option gets you a full-featured thief in exchange for slowing down access to high-level spells, as seen with Jan. If dual-classing in BG1, level 6 is probably the best time; you'll reach mage level 9 just before the XP cap.

    A cleric/thief is a bit of an oddball without much obvious synergy, but it's still plenty powerful. Clubs and staves are the only cleric-legal backstabbing weapons, but that's OK because staves deal so much damage. I'd recommend trying out Tiax before building a PC version. Also, note that there's not enough room on the action bar for everything you can do; thieving gets bumped off to the special abilities button. I recommend hotkeying it if you're running a cleric/thief.

    The thief kits?
    A swashbuckler is an alternative to a fighter/thief. It's great in the long run, and an interesting option to dual away from, but it takes a while to come into its own. In BG1, a multiclass fighter/thief will have more attacks per round, equal THAC0, and the option to wear heavy armor for better AC - because you're not going to use thief skills in combat unless you're backstabbing anyway.
    An assassin gets poison, a small combat boost, and bigger backstabs eventually. The higher multiplier isn't a match for the damage boost fighter-thief dual classes get. In exchange, you lose out on skill points - you'll probably focus on stealth first, and that means it'll be a while before you're any good at the other skills.
    A bounty hunter is all about the traps - too bad Yoshimo's not very good at the skill. If that's something you like, go for it; it's not something that can be duplicated otherwise.
    A shadowdancer gets the truly amazing ability to hide while being watched, at the heavy cost of a lower backstab multiplier and an inability to set traps. It's powerful with patience, and very much its own thing.

    Of course, there are many paths to power. I just had Imoen celebrate getting her thief skills back by backstabbing the worgs at Seawatcher - four swings, three hits, 195 total damage. Ogre form for the smash. Completely wasteful, but fun nonetheless.

    But really, the character I've built that most dominated BG1 was a simple shapeshifter druid. 16 Con, 18 Wis, 18 Cha, and the other stats hardly matter. Tons of spellcasting power, up to True Seeing and Insect Plague for tough fights. Saves as good as a paladin. Werewolf form in combat for 3 APR, fast movement, high damage, excellent AC, and magic resistance. And... well, I built a whole werewolf-themed party around that and a mod exploit. Then I dropped him in BG2, because he wasn't even my Bhaalspawn and I could take Cernd instead.

    monicoGrond0
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 476
    Totemic Druid: fast level up, good spells, at XP cap, special summons are immune to most spells & normal weapons.
    It was probably my easiest solo game, and it was so easy that I did it poverty + no-direct damage from PC (summons did all the damage, while PC only buffed/debuffed) until the final fight (here I used Stunning Darts).

    Funnily, it is an almost easier solo if you play LoB as your summons are buffed too.

    Cheese fact: start your Totemic Druid (or any other druid for that matter) in the Black Pits, they can get up to lvl11 (instead of lvl10 in BG1 cap) and access to level 6 spells: summon Fire Elementals along your Totemic Spirits, they can clear almost any enemies (Fire Elementals are immune to normal AND +1 weapons).

    OlvynChuru
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,872
    As the OP asked specifically about thieves, I thought I would flesh out slightly what @jmerry said about shadowdancers. If you put all your skill points into stealth and keep to dark areas you will only fail to hide about 1% of the time. That allows you to backstab enemies with impunity if you're willing to be patient enough, allowing you to complete BGEE without anything ever attacking you, much less doing any damage.

    In order to ensure you can stealth again immediately after attacking (to avoid any chance of retaliation), activate something while you're still in stealth (such as clicking on a weapon as if you were going to force-attack). That will start the stealth cooldown timer, without you actually leaving stealth. With a bit of practice you can get into the habit of backstabbing before you come out of stealth, but with the stealth cooldown already expired so you can restealth immediately. Initiative does affect this, so there is a slight chance of that timing failing - in that case (or if your attempt to restealth fails), just activate your shadowstep ability and run away. In the unlikely event you have to do that more than once in a combat, you can use a potion of invisibility to escape instead.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 732
    edited March 12
    Yeah, shadowdancers give you some of the functionality a MT or FMT would have, letting you repeatedly go invisible and then backstab. It's an entertaining run-through all things considered, though shadowdancers overall are a lot weaker than MTs or FMTs.

    Post edited by jsaving on
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 475
    edited March 12
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Initiative does affect this...
    Initiative is generally very important to backstabbers; even if you're not playing a shadowdancer, it's key to avoiding retaliation. Strike and retreat, rinse and repeat.

    The part of initiative you can affect? Weapon speed and proficiency bonuses. Zero is the best possible here. The basic numbers, for backstab-capable weapons:
    Staff 4, Katana 4, Long Sword 5, Scimitar 5, Wakizashi 3, Ninja-to 4, Short Sword 3, Club 4, Dagger 2.
    Each point of weapon enchantment: -1.
    Two-handed style: -2 for one dot, -4 for two dots.
    Weapon proficiency: -1 for four dots, -3 for five dots.
    Kensai kit: -1 per four levels.
    The easiest way to reach zero in BG1? Use a +2 or better staff with two-handed style, or use a +2 or better dagger. Weapons of this quality can be purchased as early as chapter 1, in Ulgoth's Beard and Beregost respectively.

    Post edited by jmerry on
    Grond0
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,872
    jmerry wrote: »
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Initiative does affect this...
    Initiative is generally very important to backstabbers; even if you're not playing a shadowdancer, it's key to avoiding retaliation. Strike and retreat, rinse and repeat.

    The part of initiative you can effect? Weapon speed and proficiency bonuses. Zero is the best possible here. The basic numbers, for backstab-capable weapons:
    Staff 4, Katana 4, Long Sword 5, Scimitar 5, Wakizashi 3, Ninja-to 4, Short Sword 3, Club 4, Dagger 2.
    Each point of weapon enchantment: -1.
    Two-handed style: -2 for one dot, -4 for two dots.
    Weapon proficiency: -1 for four dots, -3 for five dots.
    Kensai kit: -1 per four levels.
    The easiest way to reach zero in BG1? Use a +2 or better staff with two-handed style, or use a +2 or better dagger. Weapons of this quality can be purchased as early as chapter 1, in Ulgoth's Beard and Beregost respectively.

    That's all true, but some people may not be aware that there's also a random part of initiative that you can't affect (details here if anyone is interested) - which is why it's not always quite as easy for a shadowdancer to backstab and restealth as it might appear.

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