The Deck of Many Things : good/bad cards mixup

Shrimp

First thing first, I'm not sure if this should be considered a bug, or a simple oversight from the devs, so I decided to post it here.

Most people here are probably familiar with the Deck of Many Things you can get in Watcher's Keep (I'm talking about the version you drop from the Cambion, not the one he uses to play with you). You draw a card, it gives you a random effect, you draw a second one, then a third, then it disappears. What people may or may not know however, is that the second and third draws depend on whether the previous card(s) is/are considered "good" or a "bad".

Now, we'll all agree, "party loses all gold" is bad, while "user gets 50,000 exp" is good. The problem lies with three of the possible cards :

- Euryale (permanent -1 to all saves, no save)
- Flames (Gate in a Balor and 4 fire elementals)
- Knight (summons 4 demon knights)

So, all of these cards are considered... good. While Flames and Knight are debatable (it's still quite a bit of experience, although you have to fight for it... fight against a Balor... you know, the big bad demon with vorpal attacks...), Euryale is definitely bad. And I think they should be coded so.

ElectricMonk

I agree that Euryale should be corrected if possible, but the other two are debatable. Yeah you have to work for it, but all the exp seems pretty good to me.

MERLANCE

Well compared to getting 1 million xp I wouldnt consider it good.

Why not just make the deck full random? I know, people would draw til they got the cards they wanted, but it would make more sense if you had an equal chance of every card every draw, though maybe you couldnt get the same card more than once.

Shrimp

Well, the draws depending on the previous cards can probably make it more "balanced". And I think everyone just quick-saves before each draw anyway.

For the two "summon" cards, I admit Knight isn't that dangerous, and just makes some free exp. However, Flames can quickly give you a one-way ticket to your last save: it summons five creatures around your character (usually CHARNAME since he's the one you want to give the good stuff like +1 stat), so they prevent you from running away, one of them can kill you in one hit if you're unlucky. That's a pretty bad draw if you ask me, but I understand your point of view.

But we all agree, the current way the Deck works, Euryale should be treated as a bad card, right ?

lansounet

-1 to saves sounds like a bonus to me? I haven't played Watcher's Keep in years actually

Tanthalas

I'd have to check, but like @Iansounet said, -1 to all saving throws sounds like a bonus, aka, your saving throws have all decreased by 1 (remember, the lower your saving throw is the better).

ElectricMonk

@Tanthalas well dandwiki as well as wikipedia both have entries for "deck of many things" and have it listed specifically as a saving throw penalty, which is what I recall as well, could be wrong though...

ElectricMonk

@Tanthalas @lansounet just to follow up on my last post, I consoled a deck into a BG2 game to double check and Euryale is in fact a 1 point penalty to all saving throws (they are all raised by 1).

lansounet

Alright I stand corrected

Tanthalas

Ok, that really is bad.

Shrimp

@Tanthalas @lansounet just to follow up on my last post, I consoled a deck into a BG2 game to double check and Euryale is in fact a 1 point penalty to all saving throws (they are all raised by 1).

Well, that saves me some time, thanks. I was about to install the game again just to check. (I would have felt pretty bad if it was indeed a bonus)

Communard

I think they should just modify the Deck so it has the full range of PnP effects :P

That would probably be enough for a whole game in itself though...

FFG

Why not just make the deck full random? I know, people would draw til they got the cards they wanted, but it would make more sense if you had an equal chance of every card every draw, though maybe you couldnt get the same card more than once.

Because of balance. Imagine picking Throne (1 million xp), Sun (300k xp) and Key (Random magic item, but you get a really good one). Yeah, that's kind of crazy. Although I'm really not sure what the Key card can actually draw in terms of possible obtainable items.

Now, with that said, I'm genuinely curious as to what effect does the first draw has on the subsequent ones.

What people may or may not know however, is that the second and third draws depend on whether the previous card(s) is/are considered "good" or a "bad".

So does that mean that if you picked a ''bad'' card first you're bound to get good picks for your second and third draw? Or is it the opposite?

ElectricMonk

@FFG the following is the item's description from gamebanshee which I've found to be accurate:

Here's how the deck as an item works. *'ed cards are considered Bad Draws. The previous draw affects the subsequent draw. Note that some of the other draws can be pretty bad too, but they're not considered BAD in terms of subsequent drawing. Once you have drawn a BAD card, you will have to continue using the BAD draw list. This means that if you draw a good, then bad card, your third draw will be from the bad list.

First draw (random):

-Donjon* (Imprison user, save at -4)
-Ruin* (Party loses all gold)
-Euryale (permanent -1 {penalty} to all saves, no save. ha ha.)
-Flames (Gate in a Balor and 4 fire elementals to play with)
-Gem (Get a rogue stone, king's tear, sapphire, diamond, ruby and emerald)
-Jester (User gets 50,000 exp)

Second Draw (if first draw was a BAD card):

-Void* (Disintegrates user, save at -4)
-Key (Get a powerful magic item, I think it's a ring of protection +3)
-Star (Get +1 to one stat, depending on class (fight/barb/pal/ranger str, mage/sorc int, thief/bard dex, monk/cleric/druid wis)
-Rogue (User is dire charmed and attacks the party until dead. Cannot be dispelled, so kill the person and raise him/her)
-Sun (party gains 300,000 exp)
-Vizier (User gets a mantle spell that lasts 24 hours)

Second Draw (if first draw was a NOT a BAD card):

-Void* (see above)
-Magician* (user turned into a rabbit. Cure with remove curse)
-Knight (summons 4 demon knights to duke it out. They do not drop equipment once killed)
-Rogue (see above)
-Sun (see above)
-Vizier (see above)

Third Draw (no BAD cards yet). Note that this is the final draw you can pull.

-Skull (Gates in a Death Shade to play with. He attacks with +5 weapons, dispels magic with each hit, 100% magic resist, resists most attacks, sees invisible and attacks fast. Only tries to kill the user, and once the user is dead, leaves)
-Moon (+10 hp permanently)
-Talons (user permanently blinded until remove curse is cast)
-Fool (user's Wisdom lowered to 3 + confusion (no save). remove curse to restore wisdom, dispel to fix the confusion)
-Comet (5% fire resist permanently)
-Erinyes (+1 to all stats for 24 hours, also called the Fates)

Third Draw (Bad card happened sometime along the way)

-Skull (see above)
-Throne (party gains 1,000,000 exp)
-Moon (see above)
-Fool (see above)