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The "Extracted" THAC0 display does not reliably display or calculate THAC0 correctly

MoonWolfMoonWolf Member Posts: 23
in BG:EE Bugs (v1.2)
The display does not consistently display bonuses and penalties:
In this image Neera is using a sling and does not have a sling proficiency, her penalty is expressed as a negative. She also has a bonus from her Dexterity, this too is expressed as a negative. http://i.imgur.com/nFng0.jpg

The display sometimes does not properly display all modifications to THAC0:
In the above image Neera has a -2 ( +2 ) and -1 modifying a base of 20, no combination of those subtracting or adding can ad up to a total of 22 as displayed by the full character sheet.

The display sometimes does not calculate all displayed modifications into the total THAC0 ( this may be a misidentification based on the above issue:
In this image Imoen has a THAC0 displayed of 20 yet her modifiers indicate she is getting a -2 bonus from her dexterity. http://i.imgur.com/UFywf.jpg

Its possibly 1 or more of those issues are the same but without systematic testing ( that I've not done ) it is hard to pinpoint from just generally playing what exactly is going on. Another bug report exists that shows a similar problems and further issues with the "Extracted" AC display not properly displaying all AC modification here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/7659/stat-errors-work-in-progress#latest

Expected Behavior, the "Extracted" THAC0 display properly identifies base THAC0, properly displays all modifications of THAC0 and displays bonuses and penalties in a consistent manner and properly calculates a total THAC0.
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Comments

  • DethjonnyDethjonny Member Posts: 1
    edited November 2012
    Hey,

    I started out just pointing out a couple inconsistencies, but I'm finding more so I'll throw them all here. If someones can spot any error I'm making, let me know.


    I made a human Kensai with 18 Dex and two points in 1 handed weapon specialization.

    When I started up, my character has 2 AC.

    The AC worksheet shows
    Armor Class 10
    Dex -4
    Single Weapon Style Armour Class -2

    Total 2 (should be 4)

    If I remove the 1 handed weapon my AC goes to 4, correctly changing to reflect the loss of the -2AC from the spec., but still 2 points lower than it should be. 10-4 = 6.



    My Kensai THAC0 is listed as 17 under proficiencies in my Record window.

    But the THAC0 worksheet shows:
    Base 20
    Wakizashi to hit -3 (I have two points in this weapons spec)
    Strength 0

    Total 15



    Imoen's THAC0 is screwy. It lists as 18 under her proficiencies in her Record window

    But the THAC0 worksheet shows:
    Base 20
    Shortbow 0
    Dex -2

    Total 20

    I know these are minor when you are faced with crash reports from customers, but eventually you'll get to them. :)
    Post edited by Balquo on
  • HuttjHuttj Member Posts: 8
    edited November 2012
    Wielding Throwing Axe with Dex 17 and 2 points specialized lists final THAC0 as 19.

    Expected THAC0 is 17 (20 base, -1 specialized, -2 dex).

    *Edited post with correct expected specialization hit bonus, in screenshot does not match what it should be, but end listed THAC0 matches neither the correct value (17) nor the value using the numbers displayed (15)

    Untitled
    Post edited by Huttj on
  • ZaorZaor Member Posts: 69
    I am also having trouble with incorrect thac0 being listed. With a newly created elven assassin, 19 dex, shortbow proficiency, my thac0 with a shortbow is a mere 19, instead of my calculated thac0 of 15. (-3 from dex, -1 from Assassin, -1 from elf). The listed modifiers are "Shortbow - 0" and "Dexterity - 3" with a base thac0 of 20 and a current thac0 of 19.

    Similarly, with a longsword equipped (while proficient), the same character has a thac0 of 17. (-1 from str, -2 from "longsword") By my count, that -2 from longsword should be -1 and assassin -1 should be separate, but at least it got to the answer I expected.



    The new UI on the inventory screen is reflecting the wrong information, however my character sheet is correct.
  • VikingbladeVikingblade Member Posts: 1
    Current behaviour: THAC0 is being displayed incorrectly on the inventory sheet. Example, I have a half-orc with 19 strength and specialisation in long swords - THAC0 is being displayed as 13 (long sword +4, strength +3)

    Expected behaviour: THAC0 should be displayed as 16 (long sword +1, strength +3) which is correct on the character sheet.

    Current behaviour: The strength attribute is displayed incorrectly on the character sheet. Example, my half-orc's 19 strength is displaying a to hit bonus of +7 and damage bonus of +7.

    Expected behaviour: The strength bonus should be +3 to hit and +7 to damage. In all other respects however the game appears to be using the correct values for strength, just not displaying the correct to hit bonus.
  • ArcadorArcador Member Posts: 22
    Kensai get +2 AC
    They also get +1 THAC0 bonus, which grows with levels.
    You may also have str +1 to hit bonus

    Unfortunately the inventory lacks of space to list all the modifiers
  • crawlkillcrawlkill Member Posts: 71
    the kensai's AC is correct--it's just not listing the -2 from your class, as the dude above me said (jesus christ 2e can you please decide on when you use plus signs and when you use minus signs to indicate bonuses and penalties and direction of number movement). the THAC0 difference I can't explain...your class bonus should only be 1 (should I say +1 or -1?) at until level 3/4 (what does 'every three levels' mean?). and no idea what's up with Imoen.

    yeah, not a great job exposing a superoccult system.
  • VukiVuki Member Posts: 36
    I have similar experinces. My sorcerer has dex 19, she has dart weapon proficience and when she uses dart the THAC0 calculation is wrong.
    Base THAC0: 19
    Dart to Hit: -3
    Dexterity: -3

    Final THAC0 on the left: 19.

    first of all, the -3 "Dart to Hit" is disturbing and total confusing. Final THAC0 is wrong, it should be 16.
  • kostasmakrinoskostasmakrinos Member Posts: 42
    Same goes here, however in the Record Page THAC0 is displayed correctly.

    Nonetheless problem needs to be fixed since it causes great confusion among players.
  • ArcadorArcador Member Posts: 22
    Yes, it causes confusion.

    The good thing though is - it's only "visual". When you display hit-rolls on the battle log - checks are with the appropriate stats.
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    good thing THAC0 isn't overly complicated to begin with... oh wait :P
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    MoonWolf said:

    The display does not consistently display bonuses and penalties:
    In this image Neera is using a sling and does not have a sling proficiency, her penalty is expressed as a negative. She also has a bonus from her Dexterity, this too is expressed as a negative. http://i.imgur.com/nFng0.jpg

    There's two problems:

    - her non-proficiency in slings isn't displaying the +5 penalty. That -1 you see for the sling is due to the sling being a Sling +1.

    - Apparently DEX bonuses to THAC0 are not being applied to the field (which is why you have 24 instead of 22).
  • MoonWolfMoonWolf Member Posts: 23
    I agree that this is probably the case but I didn't want to add assumptions to the report and stick to merely what was easily observable, especially since I didn't do any further testing.

    Seeing the -1 for a penalty instead of the +1 sling bonus is all on me though, I feel a bit silly about that, should have known better.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I blame the THAC0 and weapon bonus mechanics of AD&D for that confusion. Just need to get used to it.
  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    If you check in the older Fixed bugs topic you can see that they knew about this bug, they knew that many weapons works this way. They agreed upon to just modify the axes, bec. not enough time to implement all. And now.. it turns out, that this is not implemented either. Oh, my :(
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I had a similar THAC0 problem with melee weapons. It was showing STR 0 in the box, but adding correctly in the sum. Anyway, I like how the derived stats (AC, THAC0, damage) are displayed in that we now see what adjusts them.

    Observed behavior: Adjustments to derived stats (THAC0, AC) are inconsistently displayed and some are erroneous; some bonuses are shown as (-) numbers, while others are (+) [again, both bonuses and both in the same block]

    Expected behavior: Stat-based adjustments should show accurate numbers
    Sign of adjustments should be consistent. In keeping with D&D: + is good, - is bad, even reducing a number is 'better'; +1 rings lower AC, for instance, but should show as +1 in the AC box (or at least be internally consistent with other bonusus)
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    I'm guessing the breakdown screen doesn't display the AC -2 bonus for being a Kensai. That might be intentional since you got it at character creation but if it's not then it should look like:
    -4 Dex
    -2 One Handed Weapon
    -2 Kensai

    So it is a display issue rather than an actual mechanics bug, meaning you can continue playing without feeling like you're cheating ;)

    As for the THAC0 thing, what level are you? You are supposed to get a +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels for being a Kensai so it might be that.
  • ShiftyGuyShiftyGuy Member Posts: 10
    edited November 2012
    Current Behavior - This strength value for certain "18/xx" ranges does not show any bonus to hit.

    Expected - Should show +2 Bonus to thac0

    Example - http://imgur.com/Argdz

    Edit - It looks like it's not just 76–90 range actually, its the same at 18/51–75. Seems to work fine at 18/01–50.
    Post edited by ShiftyGuy on
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited November 2012
    Ok i have a Blackguard with 18/94 str which means +2 to attack.

    I made him level 3 earlier to check something and i notice the following:

    I put 2 points in two handed sword and 2 in two handed weapon style.

    My Thac0 is 18 from level 3, check.

    It goes to 16 because of +2 cause of strength, check.

    It goes to 15 because of +1 from 2 points in two handed sword. That's all from bonuses.

    The info in character record, says correctly 15 Thac0.

    The box however : Thac0 13

    It also says Two handed sword to hit: -3 , and Strength: 0, making a thac0 of 13, while the info above says 15. It is like it is assuming that 2 points in two handed swords are +3 to attack instead of +1.

    Also, if i am unarmed, it says : Fist to hit: -2, and then makes thac0 14.

    What in the nine hells is going on with this box?

    What does it count? The info in record is correct, what is the box counting?

    Edit : I honestly don't know how to make this look better but i will try :

    TL:DR

    Current Behavior

    The Thac0 box has invalid info, it portays my character with 13 thac0 instead of 15 that the character record info has. Also, it portrays wrong bonuses from strength ( 0 instead of -2). It assumes my normal two handed sword gives -3 to attack(instead of -1, with two prof slots).

    Expected Behavior

    The thac0 box should have the correct bonuses, a thac0 of 15 ( 18 from level 3, -2 strength 16, -1 from 2h sword second star 15), should write 15, not 13.

    It should write that two handed sword gives -1 to attack, not -3, when i have 2 profficiency slots in it.

    So it should be like : Base Thac0 18, Strength -2, Two handed sword -1, total 15.

    Now it says: Base thac0 18, Strength 0, two handed sword -3, total 13(!!?!)
    Post edited by Mornmagor on
  • ShiftyGuyShiftyGuy Member Posts: 10
    I made a topic about some strength ranges showing as 0 for bonuses. http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8090/bug-1876-90-strength-range-display-isssue#latest

    I'm starting to think the whole thac0 window is totally unreliable though.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited November 2012
    Yeah, the character record (press R), shows in the info above, the correct Thac0 total.

    The box however is wrong, just wrong.

    I want to know if the game considers the info from the record text, or the thac0 box, because this would create chaos.

    The thac0 system is complicated enough, there was no need to complicate things more with the thac0 box that shows invalid info.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    From what I can tell the THAC0 box isn't accounting for Strength in the 18/XX range
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited November 2012
    It has serious issues @Tanthalas, if it didn't account that Strength, it should write Thaco 17 in my case, not 13.

    3rd level warrior->Thac0 18 - The box shows this correctly.
    2 prof slots in 2h sword->Thac0 17 - The box shows this as -3 instead -1. This is wrong.
    Strength 18/94-> Thac0 15 -> The box shows 0 instead of -2, but it calculates it for the final number.

    This gives us a wrong 13 thac0, instead of a correct 15.

    It should portray the correct bonuses, it writes totally wrong bonuses instead. It doesn't take into account 18/xx for display, but it takes it into account for the final number it shows, it incorrectly gives -3 to weapons from 2 prof slots instead of -1.

    If it didn't account for strength only, it should portray the thac0 as higher, not lower :/
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Yeah, I didn't notice that Specialization was giving the wrong bonus.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    The record info however shows the correct Thac0 and i assume the game is using that, not the box's, right?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Mornmagor

    Yeah, the game is using correct values, so no need to worry about it actually affecting your character. Its the THAC0 box that is having issues.
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    I can confirm. The calculation in the box has some weird issues.
    For example, the penalty of equipping a non-proficient weapon is not calculated.
    Furthermore, this same penalty is for some weird reason additionally added as a bonus when equipping a weapon, where the character has one proficiency point.
    As a result the Box shows always a result of a THAC0 that is better by the value 2 compared to the rcord sheet in these cases.
    Since the correct values seem to be used in game this isn't crucial, but it bugs me nontheless.
    I hope this gets fixed ^^.
  • ArcadorArcador Member Posts: 22
    This seems more like some sort of logistics bug rather than complex developing issue. I guess they will fix it quick, after figuring it out.
  • ShiftyGuyShiftyGuy Member Posts: 10
    There also seems to be a problem with how it calculates str bonuses.

    From another topic I made:

    "At 19 str It shows in thac0 window:
    Base thac0: 20
    *Weapon* to hit: -4
    Strength: -3

    For a total of 13 thac0.

    At 21 str it shows:
    Base thac0: 20
    *Weapon* to hit: -5
    Strength: -4

    For a total of 11 thac0.

    Now, my question is, where is the extra -1 coming from? The difference between 19 and 21 strength should only be 3+ to +4."

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8097/can-someone-explain-exactly-what-is-happening-with-strength-bonuses-or-is-this-a-bug
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I like the THAC0 box, as it teaches more about the metagame, and my guess is that it will be fixed in future updates (as will the damage and AC boxes). Surprised that it's wrong because it's sort of obvious, but I'm sure they're working on game-breaking issues more than 'nice to haves' at this point. Won't keep me from playing, that is for certain.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Well, it is obvious on the surface, but there are lots steps to process.

    1. First you must find all opcodes that somehow change the thac0/ac/damage (there are many).
    2. Then you need to find the source (spell or item) of the opcode, if the opcode was added by the engine, it is already failing there.
    3. Then you need to find the name of the (spell/item), if there was any set.
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