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suggestions/ tips for main character

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  • AewyrvenAewyrven Member Posts: 226
    Keep us updated and keep asking questions! I've been playing a long time and IM learning new things and throwing new things at other veterans making us all blink and go wtf?!

    Glad to have u with us! Good luck with ur run!

  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    @Aewyrven
    Of course it all depends on party composition, if you are playing duo/trio with Imoen or Nalia as group thief/mage then your argument with one less ring slot and Nalia insufficient traps/locks ability is worth considering. But in party of 5-6 (like OP's), what 2 rings you plan to give to them? Most powerful rings (and other items) will be used by your front line characters. There are not so many good rings in the game to create abundance of them in full party.
    As for the locks/traps, even on main character multi-thief, i don't rise locks/traps to 100 until I max everything else. Because there are several dozens of perception and thief mastery potions available, it is more then you can ever spend.
    Also about fire damage - there is a lot of fire damage in game. Like really a LOT. This is most common type of elemental damage and while it is easiest to protect against, still 50% FR is very useful.

    Ok, Imoen will have 19 Dex eventually which will give you +1 ranged thaco, this is worth adding to equation. But nothing is comparable to +2 to saves, when you stack them.

    But to be honest, I'm not fan of both. (and I'm not fan of lvl 10 spells, they are too OP in my opinion), so my fav is Jan :D I love how he reveals his true nature when he crits... and he has UAI.. and save vs spell is even better then Nalia's.

  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    DeeKayNL wrote: »
    Somehow leaving imoen in the maze doenst feel right :smile: I did it last playthrough with my evil party. But still didnt feel right.

    I think that leaves a few option which to choose from:

    1. Dont take Jaheira back but keep the spot open for imoen
    2. Take Jaheira back and kick her for good when i can get imoen (this will be more difficult for me personally)
    3. Kick Nalia for Imoen
    4. Switch Nalia for Jan and kick Jan for imoen


    If I go for option 1 That leaves me with Aerie, Imoen and Nalia/Jan.
    Option 3 and 4 leaves met with Aerie and Imoen but Jaheira as extra.

    hmmmm difficult! :smile: You notice that I have troubles with making choices :anguished:

    So looking at @MartinW comment regarding 3x arcane option 1 wouldnt be such a bad choice?


    I have same role-playing limitations, that's why if I plan to kick Imoen, I always play as Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil (even if doing only good things and with 20 reputation ASAP). I can't imagine how good or even neutral person can kick out childhood friend and sister in Spellhold maze. So for good play-through.. you need to kick somebody who is more self-sufficient and cunning. I pretty sure Jan will figure out something and fly away like Saemon Havarian :D

    About 3x arcane, I don't think it is critical for your party, because it is heavily melee oriented. But somebody must spam Breach and I don't think that Aerie who is also your main cleric (due to robe of vecna fast-casting of priest spells) can handle both roles.

  • AewyrvenAewyrven Member Posts: 226
    edited May 13
    @MartinW

    We both know in 4 to 6 groups they just get whatever is left over. They're mages and safely behind the lines, they will have spells to counter things coming at them. (Both) if you're due or tri, since you dont have imoen for most of the game you can use yoshi Edwin yoshi aerie which gives far far more versatility.

    Imoen will edge out nalia every time, the question now becomes party balance, availability, and versatility not your original with the ring.

    Heck I can turn damn near any npc I to a duo powerhouse or solo most things, it isnt hard. We got caught up tho and should take this discussion to ankther thread.

    OP has posted their party and I wish op graet advechurz! Keep us updated!

    -A

  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    I agree that we shouldn't discuss it here and that who is better depends on party composition and playstyle. But sorry I don't see how in general maxed out locks/traps and +1 to ranged thaco are better then 60/80 lock/traps and +2 to saves and +50% FR. +2 to AC reduces stoneskins consumption too... about "safely behind the lines" - in many game encounters there are no safe place behind the lines, invisibility doesn't work and anti-protection abilities are cast by enemies (or several of them) almost every round. In those cases maxed out saves help a lot.
    Of course any mage can sit in Chaotic commands, death ward, separate long duration 100% protection from all elements as well as magicka damage, with several memorized PfMW, several memorized SI:Abjuration, prepared contingencies and use IA/time stops... but question is how fast you'll be tired of using that in every encounter if you are running full group.

  • AewyrvenAewyrven Member Posts: 226
    edited May 13
    MartinW wrote: »
    I agree that we shouldn't discuss it here and that who is better depends on party composition and playstyle. But sorry I don't see how in general maxed out locks/traps and +1 to ranged thaco are better then 60/80 lock/traps and +2 to saves and +50% FR. +2 to AC reduces stoneskins consumption too... about "safely behind the lines" - in many game encounters there are no safe place behind the lines, invisibility doesn't work and anti-protection abilities are cast by enemies (or several of them) almost every round. In those cases maxed out saves help a lot.
    Of course any mage can sit in Chaotic commands, death ward, separate long duration 100% protection from all elements as well as magicka damage, with several memorized PfMW, several memorized SI:Abjuration, prepared contingencies and use IA/time stops... but question is how fast you'll be tired of using that in every encounter if you are running full group.

    I'm not gonna create a new thread but let's put it like this, Nalia wont be needing that 50% fire beyond firekraag (maybe yaga shura if you run her across the lava floors...) the ac is moot vs stoneskin/ghost vecna/bladesinger (which imoen can use) and the +2 to save is pale in comparison to imoens ability to run ring of acuity and reaching ring. Nalia cant match her on slots, cant match her on versatility, and her rings useless outside 2 areas compared to imoens versatility. Stats, spells, thief skills, and versatility.

    Comparing Nalia vs imoen, imoen crushes her, even if you wreck chapter 2 and 4 to get imoen back right away before going back and crushing the rest of chapter 2. The +2 to saves is moot since she should never have to roll them in the first place, and if she does, it's a very minor amount and a big gamble on a ring to survive you vs your spells.

    Edit: done yapping about it. Gl with ur run. Has fun!

    Edit 2: and if you dont get reaching she can run gax acuity giving her huge boosts vs nalia stuck with... I can has fire resist?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,576
    edited May 13
    DeeKayNL wrote: »
    i guess I am not a fan of pure thiefs. I mean that gameplay wise. I never use the full potential of a thief. Last game I took Hexxat and really underused her. I backstabbed maybe 2 or 3 times in the game. The HLA traps are really strong. I used them 3 times, but felt a little guilty for cheesing that way. I used them on the Final Seal fight. They were placed wrong so nothing really happend :smile:
    I used them on Demorgorgon. Felt kinda cheesy when he was instakilled. And in the last fight of TOB. Made it frankly too easy. Not gonna do that anymore.
    to stab is really powerful and there are other ways to use the traps, not only the HLA ones.
    i never put a trap on a spawn point like in your examples, i scout the area, then i set the traps and lure the enemy into them, it makes a lot of difference, the difference between a tactical use of them and one of the most broken kind of cheeses that assure you a kill without any effort or skill needed, you only need to know where the enemy will spawn.

    but there is absolutely no problem in don't use stabs and traps and in having just a person that can deal with finding traps and opening locks, to play a thief is a great fun, but only for those that like that kind of fun.


    MartinW wrote: »
    But Nalia has OP ring and Imoen does not. While AC is not that important but +2 to saves is very good thing to have. ...................
    Though I agree that if you plan to role-play good party, leaving Imoen to get out of Spellhold by herself is not immersive. And carrying her in group as quest character until Bodhi will consume quite a lot of XP.
    i agree, and i add, without quoting everything told in the thread about the comparison between imoen and nalia, that i never had any problem with nalia as door opener and trap finder as long as i swap the rings, she is not able to open some containers, but nothing that is really worth it to open and nothing that she can not open with the knock spell if she has to.
    she is also a better mule being quite strong, while it is easy to have imoen overloaded only because you give her too much potions to carry or some weapon or armor.
    but the real difference is that nalia does not benefit of the less xp spent as thief, so has more of it as mage, she benefits of getting the xp of all the quests in chap 2, unless someone does not leave many quest rewards to be collected, and maybe some chap 2 quests completely undone, to have imoen lose less potential xp, naila will be a much better mage because she will be in the party almost from the beginning while the xp imoen gets for free, that depends on charname's xp when he rescues her, is way less then the one a completionist nalia has at that point.
    naila will be a better mage from spellhood to a certain point of tob, reaching earlier new spell levels.
    DeeKayNL wrote: »
    Somehow leaving imoen in the maze doenst feel right :smile: I did it last playthrough with my evil party. But still didnt feel right.

    I think that leaves a few option which to choose from:

    1. Dont take Jaheira back but keep the spot open for imoen
    2. Take Jaheira back and kick her for good when i can get imoen (this will be more difficult for me personally)
    3. Kick Nalia for Imoen
    4. Switch Nalia for Jan and kick Jan for imoen
    there are other options that have a RP value without screwing your party.
    an example:
    you leave for the asylum in 5, or maybe in 6 with a certain thief if you want to get some more xp.
    you save imoen and take her with you, so play with both her and nalia and you rescue your sister, that is the only RP choice for a good party.
    but as soon as you reach the underdark you park imoen next to the shop you find at the beginning of the area.

    you can RP that you agree with the shopkeeper to have him care for her as you want to rescue her, but you are not willing at all to have her risk her life at your side being at that point an under leveled mage.
    when the door to the surface is opened you take her with you and park her in the CC and you pick jaheira that will stay with you until the end of tob.

    then cleared bodhi's stronghold you drop for a short time an other party member, not jaheira as she would leave permanently as you have reached the number of times you can drop her, only to take imoen and have her soul restored, then you leave imoen, rescued and with her soul restored, to her destiny and pick the toon you have temporarily dropped and you have your party ready to conquer the elven city, defeat the boss and run the whole tob.

    this way the RP issues are respected, imoen steals to permanent party members only very few xp, the kills in the dungeon under the asylum and in the fish city if you go there.
    and jaheira looses only the xp from brinnlaw to the underdark ( even if you can even clear only one of the 3 races and come back with her to clear the other 2 dungeons later, you can even leave most of the things in the underdark, like the imprisoned mage or the giant gem undone to do them later with jaheira), but she takes all the xp of chap 2 and 3 and she will not be too under leveled, even if she will take even more to reach that 6M xp that make her a casting goddess.

    RP, PG and the party you like all at once if you follow that route.



    MartinW
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 611
    edited May 14
    A response to the Imoen/Nalia discussion, hidden for length and it's semi-off-topic nature.
    Aewyrven wrote: »
    Imoen is a level 7 thief, nalia is a level 4thief. This results on the xp table 30,000 xp differential, however imoen gains 75 more thief points due to her levels than nalia. You cannot adjust either, this makes imoen a better thief than nalia, indisputable.
    Those thief skills are already chosen. Imoen's extra 75 points break down as 40 in Open Locks, 15 in Find Traps, and 10 each in Hide and Move Silently.

    Neither of these thieves are going to get significant use of skills outside of Open Locks and Find Traps. In those two, Imoen can handle pretty much anything unbuffed, as long as she doesn't do something silly like put on elven chain.
    Nalia needs help to handle tough locks and the hardest traps. The rings of danger sense and of lockpicks (found in the thieves' base and the planar sphere respectively) grant +25% to the relevant skill when equipped. Potions of master thievery, which are plentiful, add 40 to OL for three hours. Potions of mind focusing, which are also plentiful, add 15 to each skill for twelve hours. Potions of perception, which are comparatively rare, add 20 to each skill for six hours.

    I see two good strategies for keeping up with thieving needs using Nalia. Either wear the ring of danger sense (and forego any of the rings that grant more spells), or keep potions of mind focusing active. The hardest locks will call for potions of master thievery either way.
    Aewyrven wrote: »
    Imoen beats nalia due to 3d6 more hp on her thief levels. This can be negated by con boost belt but you arnt really worried by 3-18 hp anyways.
    Those three thief hit dice are replaced by three mage hit dice, rolling 3d4. And, since they come pre-rolled, we can look at what those rolls are...

    Imoen, as recruited in Spellhold, starts as a thief 7/mage 11 with 47 HP before Con. No more hit dice to roll; it's one hit point per level from then out.
    Nalia starts out as a thief 4/mage 9 with 42 HP before Con. One more hit die to roll, and then one hit point per level after that.

    So, taking those rolls into account, Nalia misses out on 0-3 HP compared to Imoen. At mage level 10, she has a 7/16 chance to roll a 4, 5/16 for a 3, 3/16 for a 2, and 1/16 for a 1 - on average, she loses slightly less than 1 HP. The difference between the two is insignificant, because Nalia got really lucky on her hit point rolls.
    Aewyrven wrote: »
    Int and wis are the main for slots. Wis for wish.

    Nalia: 17/9
    Imoen: 17/11

    Imoen wins again.
    The actual breakpoints:

    Limited Wish: The one-time effects have minimum requirements ranging from nothing to 14. Most of them require 10 or more. The repeatable effects switch from bad to good at 10 to 16 wisdom. In detail:
    Summon neutral rabbits at any Wis.
    Poison party for Wis 9 or less, Mass Cure for Wis 10 or more.
    Summon hostile vampires for Wis 9 or less, mass Negative Plane Protection for Wis 10 or more.
    Miscast Magic on party for Wis 11 or less, mass Minor Globe of Invulnerability for Wis 12 or more.
    Forget all memorized spells for Wis 15 or less, Wondrous Recall for Wis 16 or more.

    Wish: There are four tiers here; 1-9 Wis, 10-14 Wis, 15-17 Wis, and 18+ Wis. There are 37 possible wishes, of which you get a list of five to choose from. As you go up the tiers, some of the bad options become unavailable and some of the good options become available. The first two tiers give you an average of about one good option per wish - too risky to use, really. The risk becomes tolerable at wisdom 15, and that's also the point at which all of the good wishes are available. Wisdom 18 just blocks a bunch of the bad options.

    So, neither Nalia nor Imoen are going to be casting Wish with their unbuffed wisdom. Nalia shouldn't cast Limited Wish either, unless you really want to fight vampires for the XP. Do note, however, that Nalia is the only standard NPC that can farm the Limited Wish vampires this way.
    For buffing wisdom, there's one standard option - potions of insight, which are available in large numbers at every temple. Those set wisdom to 18, erasing the difference between the two characters. If you're getting any serious use of wishes out of either of these two characters, you're using the potions and there's no difference.

    That 9 wisdom does have another notable effect - a 10-point lore penalty. At, let's say, 2.5 million XP each, your planned party would have Aerie at 49 lore (mage 13, +10 from Int and Wis), Imoen at 55 lore (mage 16, +7 from Int and Wis), and Nalia at 45 lore (mage 16, -3 from Int and Wis) with no other characters anywhere close. Taking Nalia over Imoen cuts you out of some free lore identifications. Of course, if you've got Nalia regularly drinking potions of mind focusing or insight, you're getting that lore back from them.

    And, of course, you skipped strength and charisma in your stat analysis. Nalia has strength 14 to Imoen's 9 - a clear advantage, but one that only amounts to some carrying capacity. Imoen has charisma 16 to Nalia's 13, which doesn't matter because the party leader is either Keldorn with a natural 18 Cha or a character wearing the ring of human influence.

    Post edited by jmerry on
    gorgonzola
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    Aewyrven wrote: »
    MartinW wrote: »
    I agree that we shouldn't discuss it here and that who is better depends on party composition and playstyle. But sorry I don't see how in general maxed out locks/traps and +1 to ranged thaco are better then 60/80 lock/traps and +2 to saves and +50% FR. +2 to AC reduces stoneskins consumption too... about "safely behind the lines" - in many game encounters there are no safe place behind the lines, invisibility doesn't work and anti-protection abilities are cast by enemies (or several of them) almost every round. In those cases maxed out saves help a lot.
    Of course any mage can sit in Chaotic commands, death ward, separate long duration 100% protection from all elements as well as magicka damage, with several memorized PfMW, several memorized SI:Abjuration, prepared contingencies and use IA/time stops... but question is how fast you'll be tired of using that in every encounter if you are running full group.

    I'm not gonna create a new thread but let's put it like this, Nalia wont be needing that 50% fire beyond firekraag (maybe yaga shura if you run her across the lava floors...) the ac is moot vs stoneskin/ghost vecna/bladesinger (which imoen can use) and the +2 to save is pale in comparison to imoens ability to run ring of acuity and reaching ring. Nalia cant match her on slots, cant match her on versatility, and her rings useless outside 2 areas compared to imoens versatility. Stats, spells, thief skills, and versatility.

    Comparing Nalia vs imoen, imoen crushes her, even if you wreck chapter 2 and 4 to get imoen back right away before going back and crushing the rest of chapter 2. The +2 to saves is moot since she should never have to roll them in the first place, and if she does, it's a very minor amount and a big gamble on a ring to survive you vs your spells.

    Edit: done yapping about it. Gl with ur run. Has fun!

    Edit 2: and if you dont get reaching she can run gax acuity giving her huge boosts vs nalia stuck with... I can has fire resist?

    It looks to me, like we are playing a bit different game, because it is eluding to me how Nalia's AC bonus which stacks with everything is nullified by bladesinger or stoneskin. Ring of Acuity is totally outclassed by single cast of any clone spell, while unique +2 to saves are unobtainable. Suggestion to give Gaxx to Imoen in party of 5-6 characters with several fighters looks strange to me too.

    But ok, beauty of this game that it allows everybody play in way they want, so while I totally disagree that Imoen somehow crushes any other thief/mage in the game, but she is overall OK, so if you like her, have fun :) I personally felt much better after I started using Nalia or Jan instead of "hey, it's me Imoen", because I no longer need to drag under-leveled vulnerable body through half game or play without thief/mage in pre-Underdark, but it's all personal preferences.

    gorgonzola
  • MartinWMartinW Member Posts: 46
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    there are other options that have a RP value without screwing your party.
    an example:
    you leave for the asylum in 5, or maybe in 6 with a certain thief if you want to get some more xp.
    you save imoen and take her with you, so play with both her and nalia and you rescue your sister, that is the only RP choice for a good party.
    but as soon as you reach the underdark you park imoen next to the shop you find at the beginning of the area.

    you can RP that you agree with the shopkeeper to have him care for her as you want to rescue her, but you are not willing at all to have her risk her life at your side being at that point an under leveled mage.
    when the door to the surface is opened you take her with you and park her in the CC and you pick jaheira that will stay with you until the end of tob.

    then cleared bodhi's stronghold you drop for a short time an other party member, not jaheira as she would leave permanently as you have reached the number of times you can drop her, only to take imoen and have her soul restored, then you leave imoen, rescued and with her soul restored, to her destiny and pick the toon you have temporarily dropped and you have your party ready to conquer the elven city, defeat the boss and run the whole tob.
    Hmm, I never thought that Imoen can be "parked" in Underdark. You may even park her in svirfneblin village, they are decent folk as I remember from "Dark Elf" trilogy.
    This totally solves all moral and XP loss problems.

    Overall, Imoen and all her replacements (Yoshimo, Nalia, Jan) are setup by Bioware to make it easier to kick somebody if party is full to take Imoen in. Yoshimo dies, Nalia is a bit irritating and have that inconvenient locks/traps values, Jan is a eccentric gnome with constant turnip burping :D I remember when I was playing BG2 first times (I was schoolboy then) it was such a relief to remove annoying Jan/Yoshimo and take cute sister back in party (Minsc, Aerie, Jaheira, Viconia, Imoen - absolute dream group in terms of banter). To compensate for less cuteness (though I still think that both Nalia and Jan are amazing NPC), they were granted unique gear and stats and only Yoshimo was "programmed" to die no matter what with his trap abilities (from what I know vast majority of players don't like to use traps in any games, at least not in PVE).

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,576
    yep parking imoen in underdark and leaving everything not strictly needed for the main plot then returning to the underdark with the character that you have left waiting in town to make a place for your sister gives the lower loss of xp if someone don't want for RP reasons to tell her to find her way home by herself (even if she is the only npc actually able to do it) but you plan a party without her.

    about jan i don't see him as an equivalent of nalia or imoen, that are very similar, he is an inferior mage, as he is a multi and even with the bonus spells from the kit will never have more then 3 lev 9 slots and overall less spells.
    but he is a real thief, that can stab, use traps, steal and detect illusions and will get thief HLA.
    and as having a kit makes him better then the other multi mages his special gear, combined with the thief gear available to all the thieves, make him better then the other multi thieves, so is a supercharged in both the classes multi MT.
    if imoen/nalia are powerful mages that as soon as they reach 3M mage xp are almost unstoppable, as they can spam half spellbook in a couple of rounds using a PI, so at the cost of a single lev 7 spell he allows completely different things both at low level and a high level where he has some very interesting combos like using a time trap to gain the time to cast a time stop, and if he is under improved haste and DW 2 +apr weapons and has a mislead active he can use the TS to land 24 stabs that automatically hit to kill half of the oasis army or a bunch of fire giants.

  • DeeKayNLDeeKayNL Member Posts: 66
    edited May 18


    EDIT: Do I need to place my prgress between spoiler tags???

    Well I think it's time for a little update. I havent had a lot of time but got a few things done.

    Last time I gathered my desired party and freed the D'arnise Keep.
    After this I finished the Slavers quest part2. Wasnt really hard to do.

    I also brought Renfeld to the harper hold and did some work for Xzar?.
    I helped Roger in the sewers and went to the bridge district. I solved the local murders there and reported back to the Lieutenant. After that I went and did some NPC quests. Korgan and Hexxat.

    At some time we were told to go back to the circus to speak to Quayle. He pointed us to Raelis Shai who needed our help.
    I did this quest WAYYY too early. Keldron saved the day with his dispel magic. I had to cheese the warden after being slaughtered a few times. Some out of view cloudkills did the trick. My part was level 9 or 10 and went up against some Time Stop shenanigans. I cant recall him being such a high level.

    After this I went to the Renal Bloodscalp and helped him with his problems. In between had to go to a funal. At this point I have Edwin in my party and planning to find a particular scroll. I'm not sure this is gonna be possible with my current party.

    I also need to go shopping for good scrolls, my mages stilll need some of the basic spells. Like mirror image and breach.

    BTW anyone got some tips for gear to buy at this stage? I already got the strength belt for Mazzy. and bracers of AC3.

    My plan after this is doing some work for the Order of the Radiant heart and thinking about doing the Unseeying eye quest. Not sure if i should buy the shield for this quest or try to do it without. Any tips for combat in this quest?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,576
    edited May 18
    as i never play evil i don't know really well some of the toons you are using and i never had hexxat and dorn in the party, i also ignore the level of your mages and the spells they know, but i had never used that shield, not a single time in my playing but the first time i had it in the game, as i begun to play with the original version without the bonus merchants.

    so i can not give you tactics, as every party opens some of them, but few tools.
    traps: it is possible to explore the area hidden and chose a path, trap it and then lure the gauths and beholders into it and into the traps. better to place each trap far from the others or 2 at the same place so a single gauth does not activate them all at once being overkilled but leaving you helpless.
    the guy that has to lure the beholders is the one with better ST, and must wear the speed boots.
    with the correct timing your mages can begin to cast skull traps or if you don't have them fireballs in a way that allows your guy to pass their triggering point before the cast is complete, but they hit the beholders following him. if needed do some experiment to find the perfect timing, even in a cleared area.
    this is very powerful as even if you lure a large number of enemies some of them will die and the rest will be enough damaged to be killed fast by ranged focus fire when they reach the party.
    it is one of my favorite ways.

    poisoned ammo, the xbow is perfect for it, but also the arrows of biting work well.
    a toon with bow or xbow and the boots of speed and anything that can boost his ST can appear right at the edge of the enemy view field and fire a single poisoning arrow or bolt, if the enemy fails the save wait that the poison do the damage and then repeat.

    invisibility, in vanilla all but maybe one enemy in that dungeon are not able to see trough invisibility, and this gives you a lot of options. you can use invisibility potions, items, like the ring that is sold by ribald, the lev 2 arcane spells, the sanctuary spell (viconia, only on self) and the hide in shadows of your thief.
    invisibility adds a lot of tactical options: you can protect a toon that is too low health, explore the area spotting each enemy (the cloak that protects your thief from true sight is crucial, maybe if you don't have it try to get it before facing the enemies). but you can also use invisibility to pass not noticed a large group o behoders to clear first isolated ones, so you have more options to move around and use the terrain features.
    it is also possible for your thief or mage to lure part of the beholders away, not towards your party, but in the opposite direction, having large groups split.

    summons: the best one is the fire elemental, but as you don't have a druid and probably your mages still can not cast it, as well as the skeletal warrior, you have limited options, that still can be very useful.
    there are cheap summons that both your mages and cleric can cast, and are better then the higher level ones, as both will last a very short time. send them one by one, so a single death spell don't destroy them all, and as the enemy focuses on them use ranged focus fire against the nearest enemy, and don't spare poisoning ammo, but don't over use it, as is a rare to get stuff. then send the next summoned creature after retreating the party a little so the enemies focus on it. haste is very important both to add apr and to add mobility to the party.
    with this summons tactic you tactically use the fog of war, instead of abusing of it bombing with fireballs and cloudkills, the trick is to have the enemies spot a summon as first and then to place your ranged party in a way that only a single enemy can see them, so they can overwhelm him with their ranged attacks, while you continue to feed with summons as they get destroyed to make the other enemies occupied with them instead of chasing you.

    vampires: if your viconia is at enough high level to turn them and your mage can cast limited wish, but has enough low wis to have them spawn with a repeatable option you have 5 very strong helpers every time you want. if you can not do this right now be sure to use it later in the game, it is what makes an evil cleric shine over the neutral or good ones ;)
    if you lack of a mage with enough low wis the workaround is to use a PI with the cursed scroll that lowers wis and a limited wish scroll in the quick slots, as the scroll sets the wis so low that the clone is not able to cast limited wish from the spell book.

    and talking of items imo some very useful items that i suggest you to get as soon as you can are:
    1. cloak of not detection, gives a lot of chances to your thief, making him immune to the true sight (also your mage as you will have the SoTM), to stab, but also to have the enemies deplete their memorization of true sight.
    2. boomerang dagger, you can pick pocket it in the bridge area and it will not prevent you to do the limited wish quest, +1apr, str bonus dmg added and bastard sword like dmg roll, the perfect ranged weapon for a kensai.
    3. everard sling, cost a lot of money, but used with +2 bullets by a buffed viconia makes her ranged damage something noticeable, both as thac0 and dmg. every at least +3 sling works well, but everard is the best option until you get the erinni one.
    4. shield that reflects ranged attacks (and the fire arrow spell) from ribald. it is very useful in some battles, like against tarnor and his group in the sewers, as you make the enemies kill themselves, but is also quite cheap compared to the other one ribald sells and early game, when the party is not super rich, is the best bang for the money that will be useful still in tob in some situations.
    5. robe of vecna, also that cost a lot of money, but the ability to cast fast is super powerful even at low/medium levels. to breach an enemy in no time, to cast spells like melf magic arrow to disrupt for 2 rounds a caster or web to slow some of the enemies that are approaching you with instant casting and many other possible uses of it can make a real difference. it does not need PI, AOP time stop and improved alacrity to shine, even if late game the old PRATI tactic is super useful.

  • DeeKayNLDeeKayNL Member Posts: 66
    First of all thank you for your eleborate answer!!

    The evil party was from a p[revious run. The party I rock now is:

    PC: Fighter/cleric mulit (good)
    Keldorn
    Aerie
    Nalia
    Mazzy

    Room for a npc for quests.

    Seems I already am quite on point regarding my gear.
    I already bought the shield and I already pickpocketed the boomerang dagger.
    Didnt have enough gold for the Robe of Vecna. Still on my wishlist.

    Maybe I'll do a sidestep to WK for only level 1 and get some easy upgrades and the xbow.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,576
    Then don't forget to use implosion at high level, it is very strong not only for its damage, but mainly because it holds the target ignoring ST and MR for a round, and with the AoP has a casting time of 4.
    so it leaves to charname 6/10 of round and to keldorn a full round to hit automatically, as also mazzy and the 2 casters will automatically hit as there is no to hit roll against a target that is hold.

    used as damaging spell is quite average for a hla, but used this way is one of the most powerful hla in the game and both charname and aerie can cast it ;)

  • DeeKayNLDeeKayNL Member Posts: 66
    wow never knew that. I am surely gonna try this!! Thanks!

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,576
    cast from aerie with AoP and RoV it has super short cast time, you can freeze an enemy as soon as you see him and focus fire on him with all the party, using the most damaging weapons you have as no to hit roll means that you don't need a good thac0.
    only enemies naturally immune to hold can avoid the freezing effect.

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