Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Two-handed Weapon style not worth

2»

Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,233
    Pingwin wrote: »
    It is 13 and 11 before you double the damage due to them being criticals ;)

    OK. I was thinking the discussion was about Drizzt, so the damage would not be doubled as he wears a helmet. Checking your earlier post though, I see that you were basing it on a more hypothetical situation - where presumably helmets have been left at home to increase the potential mayhem >:) .

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 24
    I better explain the way I handle this problem, so we are on the same page. The task is to determine the average critical dps. You first have to know what is the average critical damage of a weapon, and then multiply that number by its probability to occur

    The 2H case

    The average damage of crit is 5.5. Its probability is 1/10. I think we all agree here that crit dps is (5.5+1)x0.1, or 0.65

    The dual-wield case

    The average damage of two katanas is more involved. Let's start first with the critical chanceand construct the sample space of two independent dices (for each hand)

    1-1 2-1 ... 20-1
    1-2 2-2 ... 20-2
    1-3 2-3 ... 20-3
    . . ... .
    . . ... .
    . . ... .
    1-20 2-20 ... 20-20

    So we have 400 possibilities, of which only 39 are criticals. 38 of these criticals are identical (one hand crits, the other does not), so crit dps is 38*5.5/400. The last criticalis with both hands and its crit dps is 11/400. Adding these two numbers gives 0.55

    So we have 0.55 dual dps against 0.65 2H dps. I agree 2H is better than dual katanas, when everything else is kept at minimum, e.g. just 1 pip in 2H style and no other pips anywhere else for simplicity reasons

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 24
    However I worked the same with blunt weapons (Morningstar 2d4)

    Dual-wield nets you 0.4875 dps
    2H quarterstaff nets you 0.45 dps

    So what conclusion can be made. It is situational. Only the devs can change the situations by giving different resistances to different enemies. In one case 2H wins, in another case it is not the best choice

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    Worth noting that two-handed allows for better control of damage types, a commitment of one fewer pip, as Grond0 points out in his Thac0 analysis. Especially true for the Paladin or any multi-classed figthers. A two-weapon style is always stuck with the same off-hand except for manual switching.

    I find that certain builds or even NPCs are much more enjoyable to play merely sticking with say 2h sword and quarter staff as a backup option.

    The way the game distributes gear isn't often conducive to doubling up on the same weapon type. You're often taking a somewhat worse weapon in the off-hand if you're relying on two-weapon style. This makes the pip scarcity more of a problem. Obviously pure fighter classes are going to rely one weapon type and are probably more geared towards dual-wielding. But the classes that are limited to only two pips can sometimes do a lot better focusing on 2H, even if their role is damage dealer. I find this to be the case with Keldorn or Dorn for example. Minsc in BG1 as well.

    Grond0Aerakar
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    There is certain truth about 2H controlling better damage types. I was thinking about similar problem the other day but in a little bit different context.

    I was mentally comparing barbarians to berserkers and I realized there is a problem with barbarians.

    A barbarian can specialize 2 pips max in 7 weapons. 7x2=14 pips, and 3 more pips in dual wield, hence max 17 for this class.

    But here comes the problem I realized. In order to truly utilize this diversity the barbarian has to carry in his inventory a whole lot of weapons suitable for each situation. At one point these weapons get so much that it becomes an inventory nightmare and impractical to carry all weapons in the wilderness.

    While 2H berserker has less of this problem, he can only max 3 weapons, and they fit nicely and economically in his inventory.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    To continue my thought on this issue. This is issue with rpg, not specific to any build.

    In trying to make games fun the devs violate physics often to ridiculoussness. Not just rpg,I would say even fps games. You cannot have in your left pocket a Surmgewehr, in your right pocket a Shockhammer, in your right sock Laserkraftwerk, in your left socket a Machinepistole,and so on, and just draw these weapons as if they have zero mass and volume.

    Some games however outright rule out the possibility to change weapon in-combat. So you have to plan well in advance.

  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 256
    The original BG didn't pause when you went into the inventory screen so swapping items in and out of quick slots was a risky business.

    Always thought it was a step backward to have the game auto pause in the inventory screen so you could switch to whatever the optimum weaponry/quick slot items was at any particular point in a battle. Defeats the point of having quick item slots.

    BelgarathMTHPokotaDinoDin
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 25
    I realized that in this whole discussion we missed to notice the most important thing against 2H pips.

    The average critical dps itself is 0.65

    This is damage. This is not probability, this is how much more damage you get from it. You get on average a tiny 0.65 damage.

    Totally not worth

    I like 2H swords, I will even put 5 points to grandmastery, but totally not worth the valuable pip in 2H style to me

    EDIT: I should probably better say the benefit is 1.65 but this is not exact either. Because the +1 from the pip is not guaranteed, you will miss a lot of hits and not take benefit of the +1. What is "sure" is the average crit dps of 0.65.

    So the true answer is in the range of 0.65-1.65

    Gambling, not worth to me. Better is dual-wield pips, which gives access to the almighty flails and Morningstar, which are very important to berserkers who need extra strength. The Strength modifiers alone from a specific flail weapon is far above the dps of 2H not just on criticals but all hits. This is huge benefit.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 29
    I made it to Candlekeep and just wanted to show you some stats regarding this discussion. Both me and Dorn use 2H sword the whole game. But with slight differences.

    So you know Dorn has 2 pips in 2H Sword and 2 pips in 2H style. He also have 2 pips in Halberds

    I chosen to have 2 pips in 2H sword as well but zero pips in 2H style (instead I put 2 pips in flails and 2 pips in dual-wield)

    Here is some stats comparison between the two builds. As you can see me and Dorn are quite alike with 35% of kills, however I have 2 pips in flails and 2 pips in dual-wield on top of that)

    I told you, 2H style pips is not worth it

    t3smultrilo5.png



    5q3kwtmddff4.png


    And this is even considering that Dorn has 19 STR while I have 18/84 and also Dorn wields a strong 2H sword (Rancor) while me (Spider's Bane)

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    Your stats seem to indicate the opposite of your conclusion. Since Dorn has been in your party for less time but is basically breaking even on kills with your main character.

    That being said of course there's a huge caveat here. Kills aren't going to be the most precise measure of damage output. So it's specious to use these stats as some sort of definitive analysis in the first place, imo.

    ThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited June 1
    Dorn is in my party since level 2

    Post edited by Soido on
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 755
    And how often was Dorn held back by his low HP, either being forced to retreat or dying and being out of combat until you could reach a temple? How long was your protagonist at level 7 before Dorn was, getting an extra half-attack per round? How much more attention did you give the protagonist, and how much of the best equipment did he keep for himself? There are a lot of factors that go into that kill number beyond the obvious direct offensive ability.

    Of course, if you really wanted that berserker to do better, you would have pushed him past a mere two dots in his primary weapon. Two-handed style is good (+1 damage, better initiative, and doubled crits equivalent to +1 to hit), but mastery in a weapon is even better (+1 damage and +2 to hit over specialization). Whether you dual-wield at 4 dots flail and two dots two-weapon style or single-wield at 4 dots two-handed sword and two dots two-handed style, either would have been far more effective than the disjointed character you actually built.

    ThacoBell
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    edited May 31
    Soido wrote: »
    Dorn is in my party since level 2. Don't try to change the subject like cheaply, I know what I am talking about. I have given you both math analysis and both observational analysis which converge to the same conclusion.

    Except your numbers literally do not correspond with your written analysis. 29% of party XP and 33% of kills means, according to the parameters you set out, that Dorn is more than pulling his weight. I.e. The opposite of what you wrote. Sorry but you're not interpreting the numbers correctly.

    ThacoBell
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    And a a 10% difference in your main character XP versus Dorn's seems to indicate that there's actually been a more significant chunk of time that Dorn hasn't been in your party than perhaps you are remembering. Sort of indicates that Dorn has only been with you for ~75% of your playthrough (in terms of XP)

    ThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 31
    Did Edwin cast glitterdust again ? I said that both are using 2H swords the whole game. It is reliable observation. If the pip in 2H style was so worth Dorn would have had 60% efficiency.

    By the way Kagain is at 15% with 3 or 4 pips in axes

    Post edited by Soido on
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    edited May 31
    Soido wrote: »
    Did Edwin cast glitterdust again ? I said that both are using 2H swords the whole game. It is reliable observation. If the pip in 2H style was so worth Dorn would have had 60% efficiency.

    By the way Kagain is at 15% with 3 or 4 pips in axes

    You're free to come to any conclusions you want, I'm just pointing out that your stats-analysis is flawed. The data indicate that Dorn and his 2 handed style pips are doing just fine, considering that he has caught up to your main character on kills despite only being in the party for approximately 75% of the time. And now we see he is also outclassing another fighter in your group as well. I'm merely trying to help you interpret your data better. Your data show that Dorn is getting kills at a higher rate than your main character. That seems to indicate that 2-handed style makes him better at getting kills.

    Again, going to repeat the caveat that kills is an imprecise measure of DPS.

    Ultimately it's quite moot. Maximizing DPS isn't all that critical to being successful in any sort of challenging BG run. Whether that's SCS, no-reload, or limited reload challenge. Minimizing damage, minimizing bad outcomes are the key. This is why 2H style can be perfectly acceptable, btw, as Spider's Bane is one of the few BG1 weapons with a status-effect immunity. And a pretty broad one at that.

    PokotaRedRodentBelgarathMTHThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited June 1
    The idea is to compare as closely as possible the two styles. It cannot be absolutely perfect. But is very close. Dorn joined the group very early, I think as early as level 2. He didn't die many times, I don't remember if he ever dies even. He was always on the frontline with me. And I didn't do anything special, the AI managed him. I don't manage my berserker too much either, I usually micromanage Edwin and Branwen because my berserker he is basically a tank fighter on his own.

    I see your point about the XP difference, he has 30% and me 40%. I don't know why this is so. But notice the kills, he has 521 and me 534

    Post edited by Soido on
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,575
    edited June 1
    Do you play World of Warcraft as a DPS, by any chance? You seem to have that frame of mind where being on the top of the DPS charts is the primary concern. As has been said, BG isn't a game that requires that. There are many different play styles. (Actually, I play WoW without paying any attention to DPS metrics, too, but that's a whole different topic.)

    Sometimes I focus a character on two-handed skills for RP reasons, such as I want to create a character with a Jedi Knight vibe. Aesthetics, story, characterization, team dynamics, and the like are more fun for me than emphasizing numbers, and one of the reasons BG is so fun is because it supports those things. But to each their own, I suppose. As long as everyone is having fun, it's all good.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I agree completely that role-playing is certainly important and personal choice. I actually have 2 pips in 2H swords for similar reason, I like the berserker to wield big sword for authenticity reasons. But I just don't find the pips in 2H style making a real and big advantage. Dorn has 2 pips in that style and we both fight with 2H swords but yet I don't see Dorn being that much more efficient in order to justify those 2 pips.

    I chose to put them into dual-wield rather and in flails. At this point I gain nothing from this, but later there is one weapon which gives plus Strength. Since the char is a berserker he needs that weapon. If he was a barbarian then he does not need the Crom flail as his rage gives him natural plus Strength.

    BelgarathMTH
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I am not sure what to make of the XP difference, me has 10% more, but at the same time we have almost identical number of kills. I am looking also at this parameter saying "Experience value of kills". Dorn has 120K while me 162K. With identical number of kills, it maybe means that I have killed stronger opponents than Dorn (like Wyverns, or special enemies like Graywolf, etc).

    Yes I remember a few situations when Dorn died. But I usually resurrect them as soon as possible, I would cancel a quest if any party member dies and return to the temple to revive them and then continue on the quest. But certainly he has died and missed some XP due to that, but should not be the main reason for the almost 40K difference. Maybe it is because I have killed stronger opponents giving more XP value.

    Coran is impressive. He joined the party very late and he has already 10% value of kills. For comparison Kagain is at 15% and Kagain was almost always in the party from level 1. In very short time Coran is already doing serious DPS and might even end up higher than Kagain. Archery is definitely powerful in this game. But Kagain of course is a tank and he serves different purpose, and I remember I couldn't find a good magic axe for him for a long time, only late in BG city I found some good axe for him finally (Battle Axe of Mauletar)

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 779
    Soido wrote: »
    I am not sure what to make of the XP difference, me has 10% more, but at the same time we have almost identical number of kills. I am looking also at this parameter saying "Experience value of kills". Dorn has 120K while me 162K. With identical number of kills, it maybe means that I have killed stronger opponents than Dorn (like Wyverns, or special enemies like Graywolf, etc).

    Ah, I think I see the issue here. Experience for kills are not given to the killing character. Except in a few rare circumstances, experience is divided equally among the party members.

    Also the reason Dorn matches you roughly on experience in his character sheet, but not on the tracking data is because he has experience from before he joined the party that does not count towards the tracking data.

    ThacoBellRedRodent
Sign In or Register to comment.