Ranger(1)/Paladin(x)/Harper Scout(4)/Paladin(x) + HS(5) on lev. 21? Or Bard-based?
chevalier
Member Posts: 51
Hello, brave ladies and beautiful gentlemen. (And mighty goblins.)
I need a level 8, 9 or 10 character either incorporating Harper Scout levels or at least being plausible as a sort of Harper agent doing more or less typical Harper missions.
I know you could theoretically have almost any class as a Harper, including pure paladin (which would be very effective for the type of jobs Harpers do, just a different modus operandi but less different than one would think, other than the lack of literal stealth), let alone a pure caster or rogue, but I want a character that's more low-key and doesn't stand out that much and otherwise doesn't look like it has been 'houseruled' by the DM into the Harper organization.
So far I've made a Ranger(1) with 4 paladin levels and then 4 Harper Scout levels, which has fairly decent results.
On the grounds of pure power and practicality, of course a Paladin/HS or Paladin/HS/CoT would be stronger. Just think about stacking Eagle's Splendour the paladin spell with Eagle's Splendour the HS ability, with Aura of Glory and quite possibly with the potion too. Saves and Dive Might through the roof around level 10 already, not to mention stuff you can later do with weapon-based Paladin spell buffs.
However, I didn't want to go the paladin route, though it was tempting me, because I usually play paladin characters, with similar starting stats and general concepts, and you shouldn't really always play the same character with a different name and portrait. That's not good for your right brain or your left brain either.
So I've decided to stick with the Harper multiclass if I take paladin levels at all. Also another question I've considered is how many Paladin levels vs e.g. Ranger. Ranger spells could be great for a Harper agent, making up for his paladinish DEX (stacking Cat's Grace; camo/conceal spells) and giving him more skill points and more justification for his links with nature and wilderness and the elves. On the other hand, rangers don't have Bull's or Eagle's or AoG, or a bunch of other spells, notably for weapon dmg.
And there are two things I'm reluctant to let go of: good Charisma (and by extension maxed Persuade) and good dmg/dps (preferably also as high AB as possible).
Bard intrigues me because you could play a do-gooder with less of a stick, and probably get away with largely acting Lawful (there are few modules with enough Lawful points awarded to cause an alignment shift when you don't go around stealing from people).
You could integrate the Ranger's dual wielding and eventually buy some sort of 'spellchain' armour to reduce your spell failure. And you could focus on combat buffs — Haste and Keen in particular look attractive and refreshing from the perspective of a habitual user of the paladin's spell repertoire.
Also, just like I did with my ranger/paladin, you could go with a double sword and use just one cast of a spell on both heads of the same weapon, making both keen, and getting even more attacks.
The Bard also has a ton of conceals and AC extensions — not as high as Divine Shield maybe, but somewhat more long-term reliable, effective and efficient.
And you also have more spells with no need to plan ahead or worry about going to sleep with Fatigue/temporary drain effects (affecting your book), etc. Plus, you get more skill points to play with. And you get to literally play and sing if you really want to, though you can skip that just as well, of course.
The thing is, though, with Bard you don't really need HS, as it doesn't give you anything substantial that the Bard doesn't already have. HS is kind of like elements of Bard as a prestige class. Well, your bard will get a Favoured Enemy, and that's it. Or stacking Eagle's, but then a Bard needs CHA less than a paladin does.
So perhaps you'd want to skil HS altogether, whether or not you mix with Ranger.
Eventually, on epic levels or so, you could experiment with reducing spell failure and with Still Spell or even buff yourself and just switch into full plate + tower shield.
Your AB as Bard is going to be on the low side, with somewhat little in terms of spells to make up for it, but with all those skill points you can afford to maximize Taunt and be quite successful with lowering their ACs for effectively the same result. And Lingering Song (eventually Lasting Inspiration) kinda helps. Also Haste will help your number of attacks, and it's not like the fourth of your regular attacks is worth so much crying for losing (it obviously often misses even for high-AB fighters).
With all those skill points you could also develop Disable Trap or something else useful — being less overextended than a paladin trying to be versatile.
So what do you guys suggest? Should I stick with the Ranger/Paladin/HS or switch over to a Bard-based build, probably without HS, and try to play it Blade-style?
I need a level 8, 9 or 10 character either incorporating Harper Scout levels or at least being plausible as a sort of Harper agent doing more or less typical Harper missions.
I know you could theoretically have almost any class as a Harper, including pure paladin (which would be very effective for the type of jobs Harpers do, just a different modus operandi but less different than one would think, other than the lack of literal stealth), let alone a pure caster or rogue, but I want a character that's more low-key and doesn't stand out that much and otherwise doesn't look like it has been 'houseruled' by the DM into the Harper organization.
So far I've made a Ranger(1) with 4 paladin levels and then 4 Harper Scout levels, which has fairly decent results.
On the grounds of pure power and practicality, of course a Paladin/HS or Paladin/HS/CoT would be stronger. Just think about stacking Eagle's Splendour the paladin spell with Eagle's Splendour the HS ability, with Aura of Glory and quite possibly with the potion too. Saves and Dive Might through the roof around level 10 already, not to mention stuff you can later do with weapon-based Paladin spell buffs.
However, I didn't want to go the paladin route, though it was tempting me, because I usually play paladin characters, with similar starting stats and general concepts, and you shouldn't really always play the same character with a different name and portrait. That's not good for your right brain or your left brain either.
So I've decided to stick with the Harper multiclass if I take paladin levels at all. Also another question I've considered is how many Paladin levels vs e.g. Ranger. Ranger spells could be great for a Harper agent, making up for his paladinish DEX (stacking Cat's Grace; camo/conceal spells) and giving him more skill points and more justification for his links with nature and wilderness and the elves. On the other hand, rangers don't have Bull's or Eagle's or AoG, or a bunch of other spells, notably for weapon dmg.
And there are two things I'm reluctant to let go of: good Charisma (and by extension maxed Persuade) and good dmg/dps (preferably also as high AB as possible).
Bard intrigues me because you could play a do-gooder with less of a stick, and probably get away with largely acting Lawful (there are few modules with enough Lawful points awarded to cause an alignment shift when you don't go around stealing from people).
You could integrate the Ranger's dual wielding and eventually buy some sort of 'spellchain' armour to reduce your spell failure. And you could focus on combat buffs — Haste and Keen in particular look attractive and refreshing from the perspective of a habitual user of the paladin's spell repertoire.
Also, just like I did with my ranger/paladin, you could go with a double sword and use just one cast of a spell on both heads of the same weapon, making both keen, and getting even more attacks.
The Bard also has a ton of conceals and AC extensions — not as high as Divine Shield maybe, but somewhat more long-term reliable, effective and efficient.
And you also have more spells with no need to plan ahead or worry about going to sleep with Fatigue/temporary drain effects (affecting your book), etc. Plus, you get more skill points to play with. And you get to literally play and sing if you really want to, though you can skip that just as well, of course.
The thing is, though, with Bard you don't really need HS, as it doesn't give you anything substantial that the Bard doesn't already have. HS is kind of like elements of Bard as a prestige class. Well, your bard will get a Favoured Enemy, and that's it. Or stacking Eagle's, but then a Bard needs CHA less than a paladin does.
So perhaps you'd want to skil HS altogether, whether or not you mix with Ranger.
Eventually, on epic levels or so, you could experiment with reducing spell failure and with Still Spell or even buff yourself and just switch into full plate + tower shield.
Your AB as Bard is going to be on the low side, with somewhat little in terms of spells to make up for it, but with all those skill points you can afford to maximize Taunt and be quite successful with lowering their ACs for effectively the same result. And Lingering Song (eventually Lasting Inspiration) kinda helps. Also Haste will help your number of attacks, and it's not like the fourth of your regular attacks is worth so much crying for losing (it obviously often misses even for high-AB fighters).
With all those skill points you could also develop Disable Trap or something else useful — being less overextended than a paladin trying to be versatile.
So what do you guys suggest? Should I stick with the Ranger/Paladin/HS or switch over to a Bard-based build, probably without HS, and try to play it Blade-style?
0
Comments
The class features are outshadowed by any other base class, and it doesn't even come close to competition with any of the fully fledged prestige classes you have the option of picking.
That being said, as a flavour character, taking Harper Scout could be interesting if you're playing for the roleplay aspect. That being said, what use you would have for brewing incredibly specific potions in most campaigns where you can buy these at any shop...
Honestly, if you're going for a power-build/optimal build... Ignore Harper Scout, it is not a viable option
Yeah, I hang on to it for roleplaying reasons — the 'oh wow, I'm officially a Harper' factor. Not that it makes you any more of a Harper than simply taking PDK levels in the Icewind Dale would make you a sir in Cormyr, but well, let's just say it works for me in those modules where the story warrants it. Plus, it's available quite early.
I was thinking about Paladin/Ranger without the HS part too but decided against it. Also Paladin/Harper/CoT since the casting progression would be gimped anyway.
I tried Bard today and was far from disappointed just by looking at the charts, though HP obviously ended up on the low side with d6 and 10 CON. I'll probably have to play that at some point. Still ended up short on skill points, though, for all the things I wanted, so might even have to think about 16 INT from start, making the stat spread difficult for both 16 CHA and 15 DEX for Ambidex.
Example: I do get two attacks per round with the very efficient double sword. But, the AB is 10, 5 and 10 with a +2 weapon. Little way of increasing it. With a sword & board pure paladin (9) wielding a +2 weapon at 14 STR, I would have +13/+8 before buffs, quite possibly 15/10 with buffs. And 15/10/none or especially 15/10/cleave (looking at a third attack at level 11) is almost always going to be better than 10/5/10. And rather than 22-ish AC, I would be looking at a 30-ish value before Divine Shield, Protection/Circle, etc. (level 3 bonus spell on level 11).
In terms of practical effect, I've just been batting groups of mostly 3 trolls at a time — adult rated Easy, large adult rated Moderate, and young, rated Effortless. It was quite extreme in terms of the number of reloads, potions and healing kits used, and so on. By contrast, I suspect a sword & board pally would've gone like a hot knife through butter or close to it — way fewer rests.
And whatever one should say about power gaming, resting after every trio or two trios of trolls in a dungeon (multiple rests per level) is hardly ideal from a roleplaying perspective, let alone reloads.
I will trying giving it a chance by switching to katana/bastard + shield + full plate in lieu of dual-wielding, to go back to light-armoured ranger-style dual-wielding later on, perhaps taking ranger levels to 9 on epic levels for the improved version. But that's probably still going to be less effective and less efficient than pure pally or pally/CoT.
I keep thinking again and again that whatever the Harpers are supposed to do which does not involve actual stealth, a paladin can do just as well if not better — especially if it's possible to prepare ahead for battles and rest liberally. Given that their goals can be reconciled — usually they have common enemies and common causes and only some causes or especially methods would unequivocally require a paladin to refuse involvement. It doesn't really make that much difference whether the Harper paladin is a paladin/HS or pure paladin with membership in the Harper organization.
So, well, I'm going to keep playing and see if I can survive or if there's just too much reloading to keep up the pretence. At least I'll have tried and experienced the build.
Edit: Allowed the guy to level up some. Played around with plate + shield for some fights. I'm less disappointed now, though it still looks like Bard might have been the better choice when compared to Paladin/Ranger/HS, there specifically being quite little to be gained from HS. It's also quite possible that a pure pally would've stormed without stopping through the same adventures that gave this guy a hard pause.