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Question on Hell Trials

DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
edited June 2020 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
What happens to Sun Soul Monks, Priests of Lathander/Tyr and LN or CN bards if they become evil as a result of choosing an evil path in the Hell Trials? I’m asking because they would technically have alignments which are not permitted by their classes.

Similarly TN druids and priests of Helm and Tempus would be affected.

Also, it would be nice if fallen rangers and fallen paladins became ‘unfallen’ as a result of choosing the five good paths, but I doubt this would ever happen unless I mod it...

Comments

  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2020
    As far as I know you just keep playing as evil and it only has a practical effect if you are a paladin or ranger (apart from on items usable by alignment). Good way to become a shadow druid maybe?

    Sadly doing the quests the good way doesn’t affect fallen status.

    I think the way this section is handled is one of the weaker aspects of the game but they are trying to show the ease of giving into the taint - due to your heritage it only takes a single step at the wrong tim to become evil.

    It is strange Keldorn and others don’t react more strongly - I recall he and Anomen say they will be compelled to stop you if you give in to the taint and if you ascend they have basically helped add an evil god to the pantheon. Well done guys, I’m sure the order will be appreciative (bearing in mind you can be irrevocably kicked out by them for failing to stop an assassination attempt in the paladin stronghold quest).

    This should have real consequences such as a romanced Aerie being horrified, Keldorn detecting your evil and you trying to persuade him to stay, possibly turning to talos if you are a cleric etc.
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,083
    The problem with the Trials isn't so much that it unfairly changes your alignment to one you don't have, but rather than it suddenly exposes the alignment players always had but never admitted having until that point. If the game were better about dynamically adjusting alignment based on player actions, then it would be easier for people to see that whoops, they've actually been role-playing chaotic evil all along (because they would move there early in BG2 and remain there for the rest of the game).
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
    edited June 2020
    This is interesting...because playing an evil paladin or evil ranger (both fallen though) might actually be potentially better than playing a good aligned fallen version...in some cases at least?

    Because now you can use paladin only items (at least I THINK you can) such as Blessed Bracers and cleric scrolls, and also items usable by non-good characters, such as that two handed sword whose name I forget... But Azuredge is out of the window now...

    But generally being fallen is not a good idea for these classes of course.

    Evil aligned druids can also expand on the items they can use a bit (most notably Human Flesh +5, if you take the time and hassle to create it - yuk)

    I really can’t envisage an evil aligned Priest of Tyr or Lathander...it would be better if the game changes the class to non-kitted Cleric. But it sounds like it doesn’t.

    And I agree a Torment style alignment shift system (but perhaps not to the same extent) might have been a better idea in BG2. NWN of course addresses this well.

    I’m actually considering playing an evil druid now :)
    Post edited by Dharius on
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 1,093
    edited June 2020
    jsaving wrote: »
    The problem with the Trials isn't so much that it unfairly changes your alignment to one you don't have, but rather than it suddenly exposes the alignment players always had but never admitted having until that point. If the game were better about dynamically adjusting alignment based on player actions, then it would be easier for people to see that whoops, they've actually been role-playing chaotic evil all along (because they would move there early in BG2 and remain there for the rest of the game).

    This is actually one of the weaker points in D&D in general, though most DMs will note a player's change in alignment and adjust accordingly. Newer systems tend to make their equivalent of alignment more dynamic as a result.

    I would actually love to see a mod that starts you at true neutral, then accumulates pushes in each direction with every dialog, every action, etc. You give a beggar a coin? You just got pushed to the good side ever so slightly. Kick a dog in the head? Push to the evil side. That would probably be nearly impossible for BG/BG2, but it would definitely make role playing more consequential. No more being a hypocrite by serving Lathander while also doing evil on the side (or vice-versa for Talos)

    The best part is that most weapons that require a specific alignment are also powerful, meaning that you have time to develop an alignment by the time you find them. The stuff you get in the beginning doesn't care about your alignment.
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
    edited June 2020
    I’ve just read Baldur’s Gate Wiki, which says that Purifier and Carsomyr can only be used by Paladins ‘of non-evil alignment’ so maybe an evil fallen paladin is not Such a good idea after all...Blessed Bracers still appear ok though (perhaps), and I’m assuming things like cleric scrolls are still ok. Will have to check some time though to prove of course.

    Being fallen in BG2 still remains a bad idea of course. Also, I think an evil Sun Soul Monk is nonsensical...
    Post edited by Dharius on
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    True, being a sun soul monk you need to have fallen flag as paladina have. Very far from the teachings, but of course there is a way for that to imagine a monk who is misinterpreting the thoughts and dogma, beleives she doing good and not recognise the true nature of her deeds. Btw as i read the monk's powers not from directly a god like in paladin's case but from her own learnings. Maybe im wrong.
    I has a question as i thinking about it, if a blackguard do good things, is she can become fallen in pnp ? Imagine Spawn from comics, who do neutral and good things (like chaotic good or neutral). The demon or devil withdrew the powers from her or just laugh at her to try to goes against the true nature why she gor the powers. Let"s say it depends on the owner (demon, devil, god) own allignement, farther goals etc. And of course she can be a not evil person who gained the powers in return for her life of her loved ones lives. Interesting thoughts.
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
    edited June 2020
    Possibly, but sadly no options for a blackguard to fall in the game I think...although perhaps there should be a rule that if reputation say rises above 15 for instance then they should? It would make sense. Demons just don’t care much for do-gooders...

    And I suppose that with that Twofold thingy, a Sun Soul monk could stray a bit from LG...but I still think that going to LE is a bit too far for them to retain their powers.

    Actually now I think about it, the fact that a Blackguard doesn’t fall in the game (as far as I know) with a high rep is really silly, IMO
    Post edited by Dharius on
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,083
    edited June 2020
    No, blackguards cannot fall in BG2. The tabletop anti-paladin could, though.

    In fact fallen anti-paladins could even "rise" to paladinhood by completing an atonement quest along the lines of what BG2 lets fallen paladins do. In that case, their anti-paladin levels would be replaced by paladin levels.
    Post edited by jsaving on
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
    edited June 2020
    On a side note, having looked at the alignment specific items on the Wiki, I’m surprised that the Abyssal Blade from Dorn’s quest isn’t alignment specific. At the very least I would expect it to be unusable by good aligned characters.

    I’m also considering playing as a ranger and paladin through BG2 and TOB. Before TOB in Hell, I’ll branch each one out so I have a good character and an evil one, and play them out through TOB, so there are four combinations...I think that’s good replay-ability personally. Dorn will probably have to be in each of the parties to get those useful evil items, like the silver armour.

    It’s an idea anyway :)
    Post edited by Dharius on
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    edited June 2020
    The problem with fallen paladins and rangers, that you will have a slow xp advancing fighter that can reach grandmastery. But loose all benefits so no spells, no turn undead, no favoured enemy, no lay on hands etc. In such case a vanilla evil fighter more competent.
    Paladin roleplaying is hard if you want to play the allignement truly. No steal, no robbery, only neutral and good companions, no douchebag answers :smile:
    Yes the bg2 blackguard cant fall without modding.

    Edit: of course fallen's cannot reach grandmastery.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,460
    Danacm wrote: »
    The problem with fallen paladins and rangers, that you will have a slow xp advancing fighter that can reach grandmastery. But loose all benefits so no spells, no turn undead, no favoured enemy, no lay on hands etc. In such case a vanilla evil fighter more competent.
    Paladin roleplaying is hard if you want to play the allignement truly. No steal, no robbery, only neutral and good companions, no douchebag answers :smile:
    Yes the bg2 blackguard cant fall without modding.

    It's a bit worse than that - you keep the restrictions of a paladin, while losing the benefits (hence no grandmastery).
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    Yes, i misstype the cant :smiley:
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 665
    edited June 2020
    Sounds dreadful...might keep the evil fallen options once I’ve done the good ones then...As a more Hardcore play :)

    If Dorn’s in the party and he hasn’t fallen though, I should be alright, I hope
  • ArcnNKDArcnNKD Member Posts: 28
    One of the more interesting points, to me, is that the Hell Trials could very well happen before a cleric has reached 25th level; which would mean that newly evil Priests of Tyr would be unable to use their Holy Symbol when they received it -- because, from what I gather, the symbols go first off of cleric's chosen deity (in this case Tyr) and only uses alignment if a cleric is unkitted/not Aerie or Viconia.

    For me personally, I have my game's 2da modified so Paladins and Rangers cannot fall - only so if I decide to play a Paladin that gives in to the Bhaal essence inside himself, he continues to play as an evil Paladin (I would love a mod that automatically turns a paladin into a Blackguard if they turn evil; for me, I just personally view it as the Blackguard/evil Paladin now draws their divine powers from their own divinity.

    However, there isn't much that can be done about Clerics changing alignment without resorting to EEKeeper after the trials to change your alignment back - which to me, defeats the whole purpose of the trials to just get the stat buffs but not the penalties.
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 1,093
    ArcnNKD wrote: »
    One of the more interesting points, to me, is that the Hell Trials could very well happen before a cleric has reached 25th level; which would mean that newly evil Priests of Tyr would be unable to use their Holy Symbol when they received it -- because, from what I gather, the symbols go first off of cleric's chosen deity (in this case Tyr) and only uses alignment if a cleric is unkitted/not Aerie or Viconia.

    From an RP standpoint, this easily falls under "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". The fact that you could receive a useless holy symbol because of your own actions goes right to the heart of role playing.

  • ArcnNKDArcnNKD Member Posts: 28
    Maurvir wrote: »
    ArcnNKD wrote: »
    One of the more interesting points, to me, is that the Hell Trials could very well happen before a cleric has reached 25th level; which would mean that newly evil Priests of Tyr would be unable to use their Holy Symbol when they received it -- because, from what I gather, the symbols go first off of cleric's chosen deity (in this case Tyr) and only uses alignment if a cleric is unkitted/not Aerie or Viconia.

    From an RP standpoint, this easily falls under "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". The fact that you could receive a useless holy symbol because of your own actions goes right to the heart of role playing.

    Honestly, if this were an RP situation for me, I would just play out pursuing a new deity to follow afterwards because Tyr would abandon me for falling prey to evil. More of a reason I wish we had some mods out there to 'adjust' the divine characters following the Hell Trials.
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