Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

What do YOU like about Baldur's Gate 2?

2»

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Part of the problem is that BG2 practically requires the protagonist to have a party to get out of the starting dungeon.
    I have to disagree ;)
    When I begun to play it i struggled even with the party, then I learned how to play and I soloed the starting dungeon with a sorcerer, and it was the Tactics mod one, that is way harder then the vanilla one, without too many problems. and a low level sorcerer, starting from SoA, so with less then 100k xp, is not the end game one, knows very little spells, has not special equipment and has few spells/day to cast (with that mod every time you rest an enemy party spawns right next to you, and the air plane, the only area where it does not happens, is beyond the boss party).

    By the way I am not the best BG2 player around, countless players have soloed that dungeon, vanilla or modded, some of them even hard modded and no reload.

    There can be RP reasons to go with the party, or at least with Jaheera, Minsk and Imoen, but it is perfectly possible to do it solo, playing vanilla, even on the hardest not LoB difficulty, it is actually pretty easy to do it with most of the classes, once you have grasped the combat mechanics.

    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisoviosfrustration
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 740
    edited October 23
    I'd said this in the "Why do people like BG1 over BG2 thread" but I prefer BG1 (I like lower level adventures) so take this with a grain of salt.

    Baldur's Gate 2 is not a bad game. It's a higher-level mirror of Baldur's Gate 1, but the stakes aren't higher in general - for Gorion's Ward and his immediate companions, It's Personal (and the stakes are high on the personal level) but the Big Bad's motivation for doing what he does is also Personal (which you do miss out on half of the story if you're not exploring everything, and the common "Skip Chateau Irenicus" mod component also skips out on some critical character development for Irenicus so you really shouldn't use it if you're new to the game) and you're still saving City You've Never Lived In on your way to stopping the Big Bad (and since the Big Bad isn't planning on sparking war for the sake of slaughter in the quest for power he's arguably less evil than Sarevok, which is a feat in and of itself)

    Regarding getting railroaded into companions you didn't use in Baldur's Gate 1... so? You're not required to keep them in the party at all, and even with that they're at least useful in getting out of Chateau Irenicus. The only member of the canon party I have trouble with is Jaheira, and even she is entertaining if you're not romancing her. Imoen becoming a mage became a plot point in BG2 because (if I remember right) so many players dual-classed her in BG1 that it only made sense to do so for the story of BG2 (though ironically, I stopped dualling her in BG1 for the Enhanced Editions with the introductions of Set Traps to the thief skillset and A Certain Magical Neera - the former gives her a use in combats I can prepare for, and the latter is technically a non-restricted caster). Do not forget that newcomers to BG1 were railroaded into either playing as a warrior or taking Xzar and Montaron as companions just from the prologue.

    I agree that there needs to be more moral diversity in Shadows of Amn than the Black And Grey morality you're forced into for chapters 2 and 3... which is why I play with mods that give me more options for getting to Spellhold than just "side with the assassins or side with the vampires." Not the best answer, but it is at least an option.

    The claim that Shadows of Amn is visually darker than Baldur's Gate is... odd, but understandable. You spend the majority of Baldur's Gate 1 in wilderness areas, you spend the majority of Shadows of Amn either indoors or underground. Compare above-ground to above-ground, indoor to indoor, and underground to underground. I have similar complaints about the DOS Darksun games, but in that case the ugly-and-darker art shift was part of a misguided attempt to make the game higher resolution that failed utterly by the simple fact that the game didn't actually play at a higher resolution. While Shadows of Amn did suffer from an art shift, it also does play at higher resolutions than BG1 does so it technically needed to have an art shift.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    It's more of a 'do you prefer a low-level or high-level experience?'.
    Yup.
    BG1 is low level combat, archery rules and spell casting can be effective, mainly crowd control spells work, and work well as the enemy ST are very bad, but it is more to use the right spell then use complex casting tactics.

    SoA is higher level combat, archery is still useful in some situations, like kiting or having an archer, but other way mlee is what packs the most of the damage, with the fighters that get good apr and alpha damage. The spells that was useful in BG1 become quickly trash as are easily saved against, but the casters have more slots to memorize and learn higher level spells.
    This opens a completely new horizon, a mage can perform many roles in SoA, he has spells to damage the enemy, spells that are actually strong, not the low level MM, he can protect himself and tank, he can boost the party with spells like Improved Haste. And more complex magic tactics become possible, even more in a magic heavy party, and some times complex tactics begin to be needed, like fighting dragons where the casters have to breach them, to lower their MR and to cast on them Greater Malison while they have probably also to summon some helper to use as decoy and to boost the fighters with some haste and elemental protection.

    ToB. there HLA and really high level spells kick in, and also the party is flooded with very high level weapons and items, there every enemy and his brother drop +3 weapons and ammo.

    I don't own SoD so I can not tell anything about it combat wise.

    Each phase of the trilogy requires completely different combat tactics and casting strategies, that a player has to learn, it is impossible to have an opinion about them with a single run and most of the (player's) experience gained in the previous phase becomes somehow obsolete and not useful.

    Then each player will like the most one of the phases as each one has his personal tastes, I personally like the most the SoA combat mechanics, as IMHO it is the right spot that allows different tactics (I often reload a hard encounter many times trying to beat it with completely different tactics, depending on that particular party composition, so i can try only ranged, only magic, only mlee no magic allowed and on and over).
    I find the BG1 combat mechanics too limited and linear, they really don't give to me enough alternative tactics, and I find that at ToB level the power creep has gone too far, with all that super good equipment, the fighters spamming GWW for 10 apr and the casters that have reached a power close to the one a god is supposed to have. But it is my personal taste.

    RP wise, or maybe adventure wise, BG1 gives you exploration and wilderness, SoA, at least chap 2 and 3, a lot of freedom about the order you do the side quests, that can be very different if done at higher or lower level, facing let's say a couple of gauths or a couple of beholders with 3 gauth helpers in the same encounter).
    And Tob is the more linear, you have really only one choice
    kill the dragon first or the drow
    so I find it quite boring, as I have no choices and my party has plenty of power at that point to succeed without much effort. But still I play it as it gives me a lot of flexibility in my experimentation, the victory is almost granted, someone gets killed only if I am lazy or over confident, but i can experiment a lot of tactics before impossible, like to imprison every enemy in the oasis, spam skull traps and delayed fireballs everywhere and then cast freedom and watch every enemy die in a split second or use an invisible toon to pack together all the enemies, after the first wave has ben killed, then have a couple of invisible mages cast CC 3x adhw on enemy seen and kaboom.
    It is really the only way I can still have fun at ToB level, as I have no choices, as the victory by regular means is granted and as once played it the first time I already know the plot.

    AerakarJuliusBorisov
  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,334
    edited October 23
    Where do I even start?

    For me, it's a bit difficult to neutrally compare BG1 and 2 now. When I played them both many, many years ago, I only played BG1 once, but BG2 repeatedly, because there were so many NPCs to meet, so many role-playing decisions, so much interaction and generally a broader selection of quests. Back then, the only thing I loved about BG1 was the slow discovery of the plot, and that's something you can only experience once.

    Now, with the EEs, I can say that I've learned to like BG1 again, and I think which of the two you prefer is a matter of personal taste. For me, it's still the NPCs that make a huge difference. In BG1, they are just so exaggerated in their expressions (I don't particularly like the voice acting in BG1) but don't get much background and you can't interact with them. In Bg2, you have all that banter, they all have their personal quests, and they feel like friends to me.
    Take Jaheira, for example. In BG1 I only take her with me because I have to or because I can't justify RPing otherwise.

    In BG2, she's my trusted friend and I would never leave her behind, especially after what happened at Chateau Irenicus. When I play a male character, she's the only one of the original options that I can romance without feeling weird. She's a person I'd want to be friends with in real life. I only ever left her behind when she got chunked on a minimal reload run.
    Then, there are those other characters with all their flaws and little details and personal history, like Keldorn, Anomen, Mazzy...
    And, of course, Yoshimo!

    There are hard choices to make, there are people to be saved, you need to earn money and think about your priorities, and there are a lot of totally optional quests or things to be done differently. That makes for a lot of options to play it multiple times.

    I understand why some people prefer the low levels of BG1 with wilderness encounters and simple fights and quests instead of "mage chess". I'm not sure which one I prefer. In the end, it's really not the battles that decide it for me. To play these games is like actively participating in a book for me, and I can write a different story every time I play it.
    So, both games have their deserved special place in my heart, but as someone who loves role playing and variation, I prefer BG2. I don't find it too dark or full of only evil options.

    I have also observed that people who have a background of playing tabletop D&D seem to prefer BG1, because it's more similar to that experience. Can't say anything about that.

    And hey, you can basically save the world in Bg2/ToB. Can't say that's too dark and evil!

    As an afterthought: The many, many mods are also something great, for both games. I wonder how many people here can even remember what it felt like to play both games without any mods and compare them based on that.

    ThacoBellAerakargorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 907
    edited October 23
    Pokota wrote: »
    Regarding getting railroaded into companions you didn't use in Baldur's Gate 1... so? You're not required to keep them in the party at all, and even with that they're at least useful in getting out of Chateau Irenicus. The only member of the canon party I have trouble with is Jaheira, and even she is entertaining if you're not romancing her. Imoen becoming a mage became a plot point in BG2 because (if I remember right) so many players dual-classed her in BG1 that it only made sense to do so for the story of BG2 (though ironically, I stopped dualling her in BG1 for the Enhanced Editions with the introductions of Set Traps to the thief skillset and A Certain Magical Neera - the former gives her a use in combats I can prepare for, and the latter is technically a non-restricted caster). Do not forget that newcomers to BG1 were railroaded into either playing as a warrior or taking Xzar and Montaron as companions just from the prologue.

    I'm going to disagree on this one. The only forced interaction (before Rasaad in the EEs) with an NPC was Imoen, and you were offered the opportunity to not take her. (Also true in BG2)

    Sure, if you know what is coming at the FAI, you will likely pick them up, but I have left them behind on most of my runs. I mean, you are in the flipping woods - you can just walk away. I suppose, if you have played it often enough, you could probably walk out of ID too, but most people aren't going to realize that you can exit the dungeon in about 5 minutes if you are willing to skip everything and make a dash for the single required interaction in the dungeon.


    Post edited by Maurvir on
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 740
    edited October 23
    That... is why I specified newcomers

    If you're playing Baldur's Gate for the first time, you're going to follow the breadcrumbs. "If we ever become separated, it is imperative that you make your way to the Friendly Arm Inn. There you will meet Khalid and Jaheira." The problem is Tarnesh - your first hostile spellcaster. Even at level 1, you're facing a level 5 generalist mage with three Magic Missiles memorized, as well as Horror and Mirror Image. Before the Enhanced Editions made the nearby guards react to the assassination attempt, this guy was going to kill non-warriors that didn't take Xzar/Montaron (and even a few who do!)

    There's railroading by script, and then there's railroading by beef gates. Either way, "there ain’t no gettin’ offa this train we’re on, till we get to the end of the line."

    DinoDin
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,182
    Pokota wrote: »
    That... is why I specified newcomers

    If you're playing Baldur's Gate for the first time, you're going to follow the breadcrumbs. "If we ever become separated, it is imperative that you make your way to the Friendly Arm Inn. There you will meet Khalid and Jaheira." The problem is Tarnesh - your first hostile spellcaster. Even at level 1, you're facing a level 5 generalist mage with three Magic Missiles memorized, as well as Horror and Mirror Image. Before the Enhanced Editions made the nearby guards react to the assassination attempt, this guy was going to kill non-warriors that didn't take Xzar/Montaron (and even a few who do!)

    There's railroading by script, and then there's railroading by beef gates. Either way, "there ain’t no gettin’ offa this train we’re on, till we get to the end of the line."

    Yep. Remember that Imoen's wand of magic missiles was added in EE too. The most reliable way to kill Tarnesh in the original game was Xzar's Larloch's Minor Drain -- hitting him before he gets his mirror images off.

    I'm not saying it's a total railroading but it was strongly encouraged by the design.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 907
    I will grant that Tarnesh was a very harsh reminder that you were being hunted down by people way more powerful than you, and yes, I have had many runs where he wiped the party because they couldn't stop his initial volley in time.

    However, if you are playing for the very first time, you won't know this. As far as you are concerned, you are just walking along the nice, gravel road in the open forest. (Which is also stupid - never, ever actually walk on the road until you are the baddest party on it)

    While you will probably go to the FAI, due to the aforementioned dialog, there is absolutely nothing that keeps you from turning south and heading to Beregost instead. In fact, it is quite possible to complete all of the events in Nashkel before ever setting foot near the FAI - and if you were particularly determined, I believe you could even manage to skirt around it until you finally need to get to the Cloakwood forest.

    Which is how it departs from BG2 - there is only a single way out of ID and into the rest of the game (short of modding the game)

  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 485
    Oh nonsense about Tarnesh.. you'd get an autosave before area transition to FAI.
    Die once, next run you use that potion of clarity you stole to avoid fear and force attack him before he even engages dialog..

    BG1 had some pretty serious flaws when it comes to difficulty.. or perhaps freedom of choice is more correct.

    Use a solo character, go up to Ankhegs and farm them.. kill 70 of them, which is done in an hour or so, as killing them goes quite fast after lvl 3-4.. and you'll be level capped (original 67k cap) 90 minutes into your playthrough..

  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    @odessa333 I think I understand where you're coming from and maybe you waited to long to play BG2. BG1 was fairly idyllic compared to BG2. Have you beaten the expansion? It definitely has the option for a happy ending. But getting back to original BG2, it's not meant to be idyllic. BG1 was suppose to be a happy adventure where you and your sister make friends and have adventures. BG2 definitely takes a different turn with your God soul being stolen and death and murder surrounding you since you are the Child of Bhaal, which I believe was the theme they were going for. You (can) rescue a Silver Dragon's egg, destroy a Drow city, and save the elves, while recruiting paladins and adventurers and sorta good thieves to help you slay an evil vampire cult. In the Foothills you can also thwart an evil dragon and right the wrongs in the land while rescuing a child.

    I definitely can't argue that a theme of the game is you're the Child of the god of Murder and Death and a huge theme is that now murder and death follow you everywhere and even if good that's not your fault but people and creatures just can't help but fall on your sword. As the story plays out this is emphasised but at the very end of the game, you can pick a happy ending and I did, and it felt good. If you haven't completed the expansion, I encourage you to do so.

    What I like: I enjoy the depth of tactics, spells, dialogue options, party banter, and romances. For me BG1 feels very vanilla and I have the opposite feeling. I find it very hard to play BG1 and I wish they'd add a banter package. I am physically and mentally unable to play BG2 with more than 1 player made character because I love the banter so much.

    Grond0iosfrustrationgorgonzola
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    I agree and I also find it very, very hard to play evil in most games but I forced myself to do it for Hexxat who is about as complex as Jaheira. I had to save and reload her at one point and it took me forever to figure out how to keep her but I did. Dorn was also very very nice and yes we were very gay together. I also love that Korgan just doesn't get along with anyone but Mazzy for some reason. Edwin is a huge fan favorite and OP so more pluses but Viconia is annoying and not terribly strong stat wise. But yes you said it best, for me BG1 felt very caricature but it's also likely another generation of gamers. I'm sure for it's time BG1 was the bees knees but for me it's like Left 4 Dead 1 vs Left 4 Dead 2, sure they're both great games but L4D1 is a demo and L4D2 is fully fleshed out, imo.

    DinoDin
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    @Wrathofrecca Korgan actually gets along well with Imoen (They have a great banter where they play an insult game) and Keldorn, surprisingly enough.

    megamike15
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    Good to know. Maybe I assumed he just auto leaves or tries to kill Keldorn so I never tried.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,516
    Good to know. Maybe I assumed he just auto leaves or tries to kill Keldorn so I never tried.

    he only has a conflict with aerie. and that only happens if that banter happened in soa if it happens in tob she does not leave.

    ThacoBell
Sign In or Register to comment.