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Twisted rune hideout, help defeating the lich.

DGDKamiDGDKami Member Posts: 34
Ok so i've trying to kill the damn lich in the twiste rune hideout but to no avail, the only way i've been able to defeat liches in general is with Cheese: i let them use all of their buffs, i leave the room and wait for the buffs to wear out, and then go back.

Any way of defeating them without cheese? is like all of their protections make them inmune to pretty much everything, and then i recruited Keldorn to help me with his Iinquistor dispel magic, but the damn spell just bounces of off the lich and hits my party!!

So i can't hit the bastard because of his protections but i also can't dispel the protections, help? My party is

MC (Cavalier)
Minsc/Keldorn
Aeerie
Nalia
Imoen
jaheira

Comments

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,710
    Liches in the vanilla game ... because of the way their protections are set up, it can be hard to break through their defenses. They're immune to spells up to level 5, and that includes Breach. There is no higher-level substitute for Breach, only dispels that are subject to level checks.

    Inquisitor dispels are a good option; you just have to watch out if they put up Spell Immunity: Abjuration, and try to avoid dispelling anything important in your own party. Your arcane casters could cast that for immunity from your own dispels, too.

    In the case of Shangalar ... his initial buffs are Spell Shield, Stoneskin, Mislead, Fireshield: Red, Globe of Invulnerability, and Spell Turning. Then, if he takes damage, he has a chain contingency which adds Improved Mantle, Spell Turning, and Mislead. And after more damage, a contingency Protection from Magical Weapons.
    As a lich, he's immune to cold, lightning, poison, nonmagical weapons, spells up to level 5, and a bunch of status effects.

    Keldorn shouldn't have any problem getting through the defenses, but you'll have to repeat that dispel multiple times if you go that way, and Shangalar's not the only mage in the Twisted Rune. Alternately, a True Sight (which you can cast before even talking to him) can get rid of those Mislead effects for you and allow you to target him. If you want to break down those spell defenses and target him directly, you need at least two spell-breaking effects of level 6 or higher, such as Pierce Magic. One for the Spell Shield, one for the Spell Turning. And you'll need to deal with the Mislead first so you can target him.

    Area-effect damage spells can also work; he's not resistant to acid or magic damage at all, and he's only 50% fire resistant as long as that fireshield is up. If you go that route, you might not even need to take down his defenses. Just remember to stick to high level spells like Sunray or Horrid Wilting.

    With a different party composition, you could set traps in the vestibule; he teleports over after finishing his conversation, and he dies. Of course, you'd need a high-level thief or epic bard for that.

    DGDKami
  • DGDKamiDGDKami Member Posts: 34
    jmerry wrote: »

    Keldorn shouldn't have any problem getting through the defenses, but you'll have to repeat that dispel multiple times if you go that way, and Shangalar's not the only mage in the Twisted Rune. Alternately, a True Sight (which you can cast before even talking to him) can get rid of those Mislead effects for you and allow you to target him. If you want to break down those spell defenses and target him directly, you need at least two spell-breaking effects of level 6 or higher, such as Pierce Magic. One for the Spell Shield, one for the Spell Turning. And you'll need to deal with the Mislead first so you can target him.


    I didn't have issues killing the other mage, my party was super buffed and i just sent in my damage dealers. But the Lich was reflecting Keldorn's dispel magic, so you recommend me to use Pierce magic first and then Keldonr's dispel magic? would that do the trick?
    jmerry wrote: »
    Just remember to stick to high level spells like Sunray or Horrid Wilting.

    My Mages aren't high level enough to use this, should i keep leveling them up until they are?

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,710
    DGDKami wrote: »
    But the Lich was reflecting Keldorn's dispel magic, so you recommend me to use Pierce magic first and then Keldonr's dispel magic?
    No, he wasn't. Nothing in the game can "reflect" an area spell like that. But, since it's a fairly broad area, it's very likely that you'll affect some of the party too. If you want to make good use of an inquisitor, that's just a hazard you have to live with. Either accept that you're going to lose your buffs sometimes, protect them (on mages) with SI:Abj, or just don't put up the buffs in the first place.
    DGDKami wrote: »
    My Mages aren't high level enough to use this, should i keep leveling them up until they are?
    What sorts of levels are you looking at here for the party? I normally leave this fight for one of the very last things before leaving for Suldanesselar. While a multiclass like Aerie might have to wait, the full mages Imoen and Nalia should be there.

  • DGDKamiDGDKami Member Posts: 34
    edited April 22
    jmerry wrote: »
    No, he wasn't. Nothing in the game can "reflect" an area spell like that. But, since it's a fairly broad area, it's very likely that you'll affect some of the party too. If you want to make good use of an inquisitor, that's just a hazard you have to live with. Either accept that you're going to lose your buffs sometimes, protect them (on mages) with SI:Abj, or just don't put up the buffs in the first place.

    Ok but then the interaction between Keldorn's dispel magic missile and the Lich looked weird, it "looked" as if the Dispel magic was hitting the lich, but then it was redirected at my party (that's what i SEEMED like at leat, maybe the animation was off). Regardless, i know the spell didn't affect the lich because all of his defenses/buffs were intact. I'm guessing it was because of Spell turning, pierce magic should fix this yes?
    jmerry wrote: »
    What sorts of levels are you looking at here for the party? I normally leave this fight for one of the very last things before leaving for Suldanesselar. While a multiclass like Aerie might have to wait, the full mages Imoen and Nalia should be there.

    MC, Minsc, Nalia and Imoen are level 15, Keldorn is lvl 13 for wtv reason (i only recruited him shortly before the fight, so he should've been the same level as the rest of my party right?), jaheira is 13/11 and Aeerie is 12/12. None of them can cast those spells sadly.

    I will continue doing quests until my characters are strong enough do deal with that Mf, thanks.

  • LelandGauntLelandGaunt Member Posts: 83
    Nah it's relatively normal for Keldorn to be a little behind in levels. Different classes level up at different speeds and paladins are pretty slow in that regard.
    Btw, when you recruit new companions, the game doesn't really check for your level, but for your charname's XP and then adjusts the companion's XP in steps of 250k, up to 1.25m XP.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,710
    With the levels you just reported ... no, Shangalar's buffs didn't stop the dispel. His level did. Shangalar is level 26, and a level 13 inquisitor dispels at level 26. That's a 50% chance of working and actually dispelling the buffs. If you want a better chance of it working, you need more levels.

    DGDKami
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,029
    Dispel magic is probably the most caster-level-dependent spell in the game and your party doesn't have anybody with a decent caster level. Single-class mages cannot get the job done because of their punitive XP table and multiclass mages like Aerie are worse still. You need clerics (single or dual), bards, or inquisitors to reliably dispel enemy effects.

    DGDKami
  • DGDKamiDGDKami Member Posts: 34
    Nah it's relatively normal for Keldorn to be a little behind in levels. Different classes level up at different speeds and paladins are pretty slow in that regard.
    Btw, when you recruit new companions, the game doesn't really check for your level, but for your charname's XP and then adjusts the companion's XP in steps of 250k, up to 1.25m XP.

    But my MC is a Paladin too, that should've made Keldorn the same level as him shouldn't it?
    jmerry wrote: »
    With the levels you just reported ... no, Shangalar's buffs didn't stop the dispel. His level did. Shangalar is level 26, and a level 13 inquisitor dispels at level 26. That's a 50% chance of working and actually dispelling the buffs. If you want a better chance of it working, you need more levels.

    jsaving wrote: »
    Dispel magic is probably the most caster-level-dependent spell in the game and your party doesn't have anybody with a decent caster level. Single-class mages cannot get the job done because of their punitive XP table and multiclass mages like Aerie are worse still. You need clerics (single or dual), bards, or inquisitors to reliably dispel enemy effects.

    All right so my buddies are too weak for that lich, dully noted.

    Also kinda related, you think my party is strong enough to defeat Firkraag or should i keep leveling?


  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,710
    If you've just cleared the dungeon, you should definitely come back later for the dragon. The paladin "stronghold" quest line starts with coming back from Windspear, and ends with killing Firkraag.

  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 170
    This is quite possibly the hardest fight in the whole saga. So, no shame in leaving it for later. But if you still want to do it immediately, one neat tool to use when fighting liches is False Dawn, the 6th level cleric spell. It is AoE spell that causes mediocre damage, but it also causes confusion to undead for one round after it is cast. And there is no saving throw. So, as far as I know, liches have no way of countering this (apart from maybe some SI, not sure), and a confused lich cannot cast spells or activate triggers (but they can still activate contigencies). Aerie should be high level enough to cast it and you can also temporarily pick up Anomen for this fight. So, what you can do is get clerics repeatedly cast False Dawn (he should have a few castings of this, as well as Aerie) near Shangalar until his PfMW wears off, then you can easily finish him with melee weapon. Of course, this means you dedicate one or both of them just to casting this and doing nothing else, but...

  • DGDKamiDGDKami Member Posts: 34
    VanDerBerg wrote: »
    This is quite possibly the hardest fight in the whole saga. So, no shame in leaving it for later. But if you still want to do it immediately, one neat tool to use when fighting liches is False Dawn, the 6th level cleric spell. It is AoE spell that causes mediocre damage, but it also causes confusion to undead for one round after it is cast. And there is no saving throw. So, as far as I know, liches have no way of countering this (apart from maybe some SI, not sure), and a confused lich cannot cast spells or activate triggers (but they can still activate contigencies). Aerie should be high level enough to cast it and you can also temporarily pick up Anomen for this fight. So, what you can do is get clerics repeatedly cast False Dawn (he should have a few castings of this, as well as Aerie) near Shangalar until his PfMW wears off, then you can easily finish him with melee weapon. Of course, this means you dedicate one or both of them just to casting this and doing nothing else, but...

    Thats sounds like cheese hahah, but yeah i wll try that if everything else fails

  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 170
    Well, all depends on what you classify as cheese :) This still requires you to get close to him and cast the first false dawn (with a casting time of 9) uninterrupted. You still have to deal with his stoneskin and (possibly two) PfMWs. Cheese to me is not giving the enemy a fighting chance, e.g. setting traps where you know he will spawn

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