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From an in-game perspective, what quests should CHARNAME be famous for?

The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
[Edit: I've edited the title to change it from "most famous?" to "famous?", as what I was hoping to do was separate the very noteworthy quests from the more run of the mill ones. I imagine we can all agree that clearing the Nashkel mines and saving the Grand Dukes (at the same time exposing Rieltar's original plot) are pretty much the most noteworthy.

To clarify, I'm not talking about considerations relating to game balance or the rules. I'm asking what actions would become widely known and talked about approvingly by the inhabitants of the Sword Coast, both common folk and in positions of power.

Off the top of my head, I can think of:

(1) Clearing the Nashkel mines;
(2) Finding the bandit camp AND killing the mercenary leaders (provided the Flaming Fist know about it*);
(3) Freeing the slaves in Cloakwood (provided they make it out of the forest alive*);
(4) Killing the Ogre Mage in the sewers of BG city;
(5) Killing Bassilus for the governor of Beregost;
(6) Clearing Durlag's Tower AND rescuing Dalton;
(7) Maaaaaaybe clearing the Firewine Ruins for the folk of Gullykin;
(8) Maaaaaaybe killing the wyverns for the governor of Beregost.

That's about it. The asterisk next to (2) and (3) is in recognition of the fact that this doesn't happen in the game and/or doesn't really seem to be given much consideration.

Notably, Scar's Seven Suns quest gives +2 rep and is not on that list, while his Ogre Mage quest is on the list and gives no rep in-game. I can totally see the Seven Suns quest mattering a lot to Scar and the Grand Dukes, but I don't see it mattering to the wider world in the same way the Sewer Ogre does (as well as mattering to Scar et al).

Anyone have an opinion on the above?

Post edited by The_Baffled_King on
FenrirWolfgangerOrlonKronsteen

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,656
    i would say at least (1) for sure, the iron crisis was a huge deal in bg1 so anyone who would have solved that would definitely get recognized

    FenrirWolfganger
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,318
    Only 1 and partly 2 will happen. The rest is optional.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • FenrirWolfgangerFenrirWolfganger Member Posts: 21
    1) Definitely, when you first meet Scar he comments on it.
    2+3) Don't think so. How many even know you attacked the Bandit camp, plus technically I feel the game was written with you not attacking. As for another mine in the forest, apart from the escaped slaves who cares.
    4) Trouble in the sewers, sorry that's just a police action, who cares.
    5) Bassilus yes, he made a nuisance of himself in Beregost.
    5a)On that matter rescuing Captain Brage would also be a big deal especially around Nashkel because of Brage's pre-berserk popularity.
    6) Durlag's Tower, sorry just another day another dungeon, and you can be sure other's would claim credit too
    7) Gullykin would certainly remember you, as would all favourable to Halflings and the Towns warriors when they returned and those they deal with.
    8) Sorry, Wyverns are just Pest Control.

    So 1, 5, 5a (Brage) and 7. But also
    9) Dobbleganger infiltration of the Merchant Houses, how much the Common people would know is questionable but the Dukes were freaking over the Seven Sun's acting strange so they'd remember Abdel cough CHARNAME'S role there.
    10) And of course the whole stopping Sarevok's war plans.

    As a completion it's kinda funny/humbling how few people would ultimately care about all the side quests and random encounters we do.

    The_Baffled_King
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    Haha, on the basis of the first two comments, perhaps I shot myself in the foot with the way I phrased my first post. When I said "should", I meant "if the player does the quest"!

    And yeah, it's totally right that solving the iron crisis is the biggest of deals, although for my money that absolutely has to mean dealing with the bandits as well as Nashkel mines.

    What I was looking to do is identify any quests which, while mostly not being quite so prominent as clearing the Nashkel mines, are nonetheless significantly more prominent than most of the quests that Gorion's Ward (GW) can complete. I figure that the things that add to the promience of a quest are this:

    (a) Someone in a position of authority has asked for the quest to be done;
    (b) The quest directly and obviously helps the authorities;

    (c) The quest directly and obviously helps a lot of common folk*;
    (d) Common folk already talk about the quest before it is done;
    (e) Common folk already talk about the quest after it is done;
    (f) Common folk SHOULD realistically be talking about the quest/it's completion, even if they do not;

    (g) It's plausible for people in multiple areas** (common folk or authorities) to learn of GW's actions;
    (h) The quest involves straight-up virtuous heroism;
    (i) The quest involves an impressive battle (objectively, and/or in the view of the quest-giver);
    (j) There's no reason for GW's actions to be kept secret by those who know of them.

    *Common folk meaning the general public, not just creatures with Commoner above their head.
    **Areas where many people gather: Ulgoth's Beard, BG City, Friendly Arm, Beregost, Gullykin, Nashkel.

    (thanks for your thoughts, @FenrirWolfganger , I'll reply to your post in a bit)

    FenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    edited May 27
    I won't reply to every part of your comment, @FenrirWolfganger , but in those places where your view is different to mine I've taken note of that.
    2+3) Don't think so. How many even know you attacked the Bandit camp, plus technically I feel the game was written with you not attacking.
    Yeah, the game was 100% written from the point of view of you not attacking. The only place in the Bandit Camp where you find out that what is in Cloakwood is a mine is in the conversation with Tazok. Yet your journal will inform you of the mine regardless of whether or not you infiltrated the camp and met Tazok!

    In some respects its fine for the game not to care what happens in the Bandit Camp, because the point of going there is finding out about Cloakwood. But, in other respects, it's seriously problematic, because the bandit raids are half of the iron crisis, and they are never explicitly dealt with.

    Again, this doesn't have to be a problem if we assume that the Flaming Fist deal with the bandits once they get good quality iron equipment via the Iron Throne. But Wyrm's Crossing is so-say shut because of the bandits, so if they aren't dealt with then it re-opened for no apparent reason (after GW goes to the Bandit Camp, sure, but only if Cloakwood is done).

    The Vai's Bounty on Bandits quest acts as a proxy for dealing with the bandits, and it does add a reputation point, but I didn't put it on my list because it can be completed without killing even a single bandit! Literally the only things required are the intial conversation, and a second conversation after having done the Bandit Camp with no bandit scalps in the inventory.

    So you're totally right that no-one knows you've been to the Bandit Camp - heck, you don't even get to tell OFFICER VAI that you've been there. But the game does assume that you've dealt with the bandits. And if you've done so, that's a BIG DEAL. And I think the only sensible way to represent that is to directly link it to finding the Bandit Camp (something the Flaming Fist were unable to do) and working with the Flaming Fist to deal with the bandits.
    5a)On that matter rescuing Captain Brage would also be a big deal especially around Nashkel because of Brage's pre-berserk popularity.
    This is an interesting one. I thought about it, but one reason I didn't add it to my intial list is that there are opposing in-game views about what should happen to Brage. Some whom you talk to refer to his popularity, as you say. Others want him to hang. So what happens to Brage occupies a morally and legally grey area. Also, while GW's actions are significant to the Amnish authorities, their sphere of influence is limited to the area around Nashkel (whereas helping the governor of Beregost would be notable to the authorities in BG City, and vice-versa).
    9) Dobbleganger infiltration of the Merchant Houses, how much the Common people would know is questionable but the Dukes were freaking over the Seven Sun's acting strange so they'd remember Abdel cough CHARNAME'S role there.
    Also an interesting one. Frankly the only reason that the Merchants' League quest is less prominent than the Seven Suns is that it's only available if you help Aldeth in Cloakwood. Arguably it should be MORE prominent, because if the Seven Suns' business decisions bother the Grand Dukes, the same will be said for the Merchants' League, and they need only speak to Aldeth for him to say "Yeah, tell me about it, something is wrong here, please help me.".

    That said, I think it's significant that the common folk wouldn't really know what is going on. And I think that the game pretty much makes us handwave that the intrigue with the doppelgangers is hushed up, as really the Iron Throne is blatantly guilty as sin and should have been dealt with ages ago.

    As an aside, the plot would have been much better if the Iron Throne had been running a (mostly) legitimate operation in BG City for some time, with the events of the game kicking off only because Rieltar assumes control. The game would play out identically, with only minor adjustments to dialog, and the benefit would be that I don't have to gag and blindfold my suspension of disbelief and leave it in another room from Chapter 5 onwards...
    10) And of course the whole stopping Sarevok's war plans.
    Absolutely. I should've mentioned I skipped this because it's end-game content!

    Post edited by The_Baffled_King on
    FenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    Oh, one final clarification about Brage. In the real world, he would clearly be found not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility, and I, personally, would not hold him culpable for his actions. But (a) some people, and particularly those who lost friends or relatives to Brage, would not forgive him; and (b) the game doesn't really explore the rammifications of finding that Brage's sword was cursed. That is what I mean by it occupying a morally and legally grey area.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • masteralephmasteraleph Member Posts: 153
    Oh, one final clarification about Brage. In the real world, he would clearly be found not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility, and I, personally, would not hold him culpable for his actions. But (a) some people, and particularly those who lost friends or relatives to Brage, would not forgive him; and (b) the game doesn't really explore the rammifications of finding that Brage's sword was cursed. That is what I mean by it occupying a morally and legally grey area.

    The problem with this is that they're living in a world with cursed items. You have to imagine people being like "oh #%*%, a cursed sword? My cousin picked up one of those last Tuesday"

    The_Baffled_KingFenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    Hah, I'm not certain I completely agree with your point, but it sure was put in an entertaining fashion : )

    FenrirWolfganger
  • FenrirWolfgangerFenrirWolfganger Member Posts: 21
    I won't reply to every part of your comment, @FenrirWolfganger

    Good, that would have been a waste of your time.
    So you're totally right that no-one knows you've been to the Bandit Camp - heck, you don't even get to tell OFFICER VAI that you've been there. But the game does assume that you've dealt with the bandits. And if you've done so, that's a BIG DEAL. And I think the only sensible way to represent that is to directly link it to finding the Bandit Camp (something the Flaming Fist were unable to do) and working with the Flaming Fist to deal with the bandits.

    When you report to Officer VAI after Cloakwood with no Scalps she says she's off to make her report and will commend you. FR is a dark world, why do you believe her? Neither Scar nor Duke Elton mention it, as far as most people will be concerned it was another police action by the Flaming Fist, they do a lot of them. Even if Scar knows you played a part in it that's credit to Vai for hiring you in the first place.

    I'm sure the Amnish authorities would have happily claimed credit for Nashgel Mines too but the complete failure of the local garrison (exasperated by Brage's rampage) combined with the clear view of CHARNAME goes in, troubles stop, would have made that impossible.

    But do remember, all the little quests we do to help the poor people, they will certainly remember those.

    The_Baffled_King
  • FenrirWolfgangerFenrirWolfganger Member Posts: 21
    game doesn't really explore the rammifications of finding that Brage's sword was cursed.

    The problem with this is that they're living in a world with cursed items. You have to imagine people being like "oh #%*%, a cursed sword? My cousin picked up one of those last Tuesday"

    True @masteraleph but 1) most cursed items don't send you on a bloody rampage and 2) no one else twigged what was going on. (I forget how Brage got the sword).

    Put another way, we know people can win Lottery Jackpots, but if we win one ourself do we expect to say "My cousin got one of those last week"?

    The_Baffled_King
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    When you report to Officer VAI after Cloakwood with no Scalps she says she's off to make her report and will commend you. FR is a dark world, why do you believe her?

    That's a totally valid point, but I'd say it's more applicable to a P&P game where there is a DM and the players have the freedom to explore that kind of thing. BG is pretty straightforward (too straightforward; the "good" choice is almost always rewarded), and the Officer Vai quest does give a point of reputation.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    I always thought there should be at least one dialogue in SoD or BGII acknowledging how CHARNAME and crew defeated Aec'Letec and his cultists in Ulgoth's Beard. They did save the Sword Coast from a rampaging Greater Nabassu, after all.

    FenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    edited May 29
    Mortianna wrote: »
    I always thought there should be at least one dialogue in SoD or BGII acknowledging how CHARNAME and crew defeated Aec'Letec and his cultists in Ulgoth's Beard. They did save the Sword Coast from a rampaging Greater Nabassu, after all.
    This was another one I considered for my list. I decided against it in large part because (a) nobody knew the demon was there beforehand; and (b) CHARNAME is partly responsible for the demon getting summoned!

    At some point I plan to rewrite the commoners' dialogs so that they display more awareness of the world around them. The villagers of Ulgoth's Beard will have something to say about those strange folk turning up in their village, and about the chants, screams, thumps, and whatnot that came from the building in the middle of town after CHARNAME and them strange folk started brawling.

    FenrirWolfgangerMortianna
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,793
    Mortianna wrote: »
    I always thought there should be at least one dialogue in SoD or BGII acknowledging how CHARNAME and crew defeated Aec'Letec and his cultists in Ulgoth's Beard. They did save the Sword Coast from a rampaging Greater Nabassu, after all.
    There's actually a spot that would be perfect for that. Hurgan Stoneblade, the dwarf who asked you to recover Soultaker, attends Nalia's father's funeral.

    Unfortunately, Nalia is the only one he recognizes.

    The_Baffled_KingFenrirWolfgangerMortianna
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 804
    This is why Fame and Reputation need to be separated.

    Of the main quests:
    1) Nashkel Mines, definitely, but since Nashkel is part of Amn it should be used as a "silly accidental traitor" joke when you get to Baldur's Gate the first time. "Oh, so you're the idiots who helps Amn before helping Baldur's Gate."
    2) The Bandit Camp, no (or at least, not during BG1). This is an entirely clandestine mission and you almost need to keep what goes on here under your hat in order to keep The Higher Ups from coming down on you personally, plus the writing itself wants you to go straight from this to...
    3) Cloakwood Mines, sort of? Free or Don't Free the slaves, this is another clandestine one but it definitely needs to be kept under your hat - remember, the Iron Throne's plan was to profiteer off of the upcoming war with Amn (it was Sarevok and his faction that turned it into a Let's Resurrect Bhaal campaign), and the Iron Throne has a reputation for providing Good Iron From An Undisclosed Location. You just closed down that Undisclosed Location, forcing Baldur's Gate to once again depend on Amnish Iron.
    4) Speaking of, the first raid on the Iron Throne - where you storm the tower, climb to the top, and abuse the staircases to burn out the other spellcaster's spells learn the whereabouts of the Iron Throne leadership - actually is used against you in Chapter 6, since it just goes to show that you have a personal beef with Reiltar and his henchmen. That you're in the right is irrelevant. For similar reasons I'm just going to gloss over the Escape From Candlekeep.
    5) Saving the Grand Dukes' lives at the Coronation is kind of a big deal, and is the main reason that the Flaming Fist ends up calling off their arrest-on-sight orders. It doesn't help that Sarevok gets frustrated enough when his doppelganger allies completely fail to do the job that he admits that you were right all along about what the Iron Throne has been doing (retroactively justifying 3 and 4).

    FenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    I slightly edited the title of the thread. The details, and the rationale for it, are in bold at the top of the first post.

  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    Pokota wrote: »
    1) Nashkel Mines, definitely, but since Nashkel is part of Amn it should be used as a "silly accidental traitor" joke when you get to Baldur's Gate the first time. "Oh, so you're the idiots who helps Amn before helping Baldur's Gate."
    That's an interesting point, but what can Gorion's Ward (GW) do to help? Wyrm's Crossing is closed. What GW can do is help against the bandits - but you argue below that finding their camp is a clandestine mission!
    Pokota wrote: »
    2) The Bandit Camp, no (or at least, not during BG1). This is an entirely clandestine mission and you almost need to keep what goes on here under your hat in order to keep The Higher Ups from coming down on you personally
    I don't agree. The long and short of it is that the writers liked the idea of GW discovering and infiltrating a hidden bandit camp in order to discover the existence of the Cloakwood mine. That's it.
    Pokota wrote: »
    3) Cloakwood Mines, sort of? Free or Don't Free the slaves, this is another clandestine one
    I disagree. Wouldn't the Flaming Fist like to know that the Throne are using slave miners? Slavery is illegal in that part of the world. And how about the fact that, according to Sarevok's diary, many of the slaves are prisoners taken during the bandit raids? Dhanial, one the Throne flunkies in Chapter 7, says of Sarvok and Cloakwood "Its destruction probably saved him the trouble of doing it himself, though marching the Flaming Fist through the mines would have only increased his popularity.".

    And it is hardly kept under your hat if all those released miners flee to BG city, is it? Flooding Cloakwood with the slaves inside is probably the only thing that would require GW to keep it under their hat!

    You're right about the "Good Iron From An Undisclosed Location", of course, and I like to think that's why the Grand Dukes were reluctant to investigate the Throne - unless they had sufficient evidence to shut down the Throne and confiscate its iron, the Throne might walk away and leave them without iron.
    Pokota wrote: »
    It doesn't help that Sarevok gets frustrated enough when his doppelganger allies completely fail to do the job that he admits that you were right all along about what the Iron Throne has been doing (retroactively justifying 3 and 4).
    Sarevok's goose is cooked regardless because you have either his diary (detailing the entirety of the orginal Iron Throne plot) or his letters to Slythe and Krystin (incriminating him in the assassination of Entar and the attempt in the Ducal Palace).

    FenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    To be clear, I do understand that a plot where GW uncovers successive layers of a mystery by visiting different locations in order serves also to manage the difficulty curve. And I do like much of the plot elements of BG. It's just a shame that so much of it completely falls apart under any scrutiny, because it wouldn't have taken much to change that.

    So, anyway. That CHARNAME fella/lass. What would they be famous for?

    FenrirWolfgangerGundanRTO
  • GundanRTOGundanRTO Member Posts: 75
    5) The town crier in Beregost will proclaim "The murderer Bassilus is dead! The hero (Charname) is said to have done the deed. May they always be welcome in this town!" That's a pretty clear indication that the party will be fondly remembered throughout Beregost proper, at any rate.

    Speaking of Beregost, the paladin in the Jovial Juggler notes that the news of the party's battle with the Half Ogres to the southwest of the town have reached the town itself after you've completed the quest for him. So that may bolster your popularity in the town along with killing Bassilus and cleaning out the Nashkel Mines.

    Balrog99FenrirWolfgangerThe_Baffled_King
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    Yep, the town crier was another of the factors behind having Bassilus on my list.

    With the Bjornin dialogue, we both know he says what he says partly so the game can 'justify' Bjornin giving you the quest reward, when otherwise you have no proof of killing the half-ogres ; )

    But it's a good spot, @GundanRTO I suppose that any increase in GW's fame for the lesser quests would be subject to diminishing returns; ie they might be known as the party that dealt with the half-ogres for the wounded paladin, but once they've killed Bassilus, it's the latter they would be known for. And once they've cleared the Nashkel mines, killing a few half-ogres is just what they did on Tuesday.

    GundanRTOFenrirWolfganger
  • GundanRTOGundanRTO Member Posts: 75
    Yep, the town crier was another of the factors behind having Bassilus on my list.

    With the Bjornin dialogue, we both know he says what he says partly so the game can 'justify' Bjornin giving you the quest reward, when otherwise you have no proof of killing the half-ogres ; )

    But it's a good spot, @GundanRTO I suppose that any increase in GW's fame for the lesser quests would be subject to diminishing returns; ie they might be known as the party that dealt with the half-ogres for the wounded paladin, but once they've killed Bassilus, it's the latter they would be known for. And once they've cleared the Nashkel mines, killing a few half-ogres is just what they did on Tuesday.

    I suppose, if you need an in-game justification, one could work with the idea that one of the two fisherman in the area (probably Torlo, since he's...a bit more subdued) might have witnessed the battle and relayed the information after travelling to Beregost for supplies.

    Obviously, clearing the mines would be their most notable accomplishment in the early portion of the game, but among adventurers, the idea of them being able to handle creatures more formidable than kobolds might also cast them in a positive light.

    Either way (especially if they're completed before the mines), quests like Bjornin's and Joia's ensure that the party will gain at least bit of acclaim through word of mouth. Every little bit helps. :)

    Great thread.

    The_Baffled_KingFenrirWolfganger
  • The_Baffled_KingThe_Baffled_King Member Posts: 43
    edited June 3
    Haha, your description of the fishermen raised a laugh! But yeah, their presence in the area providing in-game justification is a good explanation to use.
    GundanRTO wrote: »
    Great thread.
    Thanks! Although, obviously, it's the replies that make the thread, rather than just the OP.

    The reason for making the thread is because I'm working on a mod that lets you complete chapters out of order. Among other things, it requires deciding what to do with any content in which GW's party is deemed the big damn heroes because they cleared the Nashkel mines. I figure that, in many cases, the solution is to allow them to be deemed the big damn heroes for a few different things.

    GundanRTOFenrirWolfganger
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