Druid kit viability late game
ShadowBlaze
Member Posts: 41
Upon strong recommendations from many veterans, I created a Avenger druid charname and she did awesome in the first 2 games. Web + Baby Wyvern + Improved Invis was super good throughout the game, but I found late SoD enemies very hard to hit due to the Thac0.
Thankfully, 1 successful poison fail was enough to kill almost everything in the game and multiple web castings helped a ton too. Playing with a full party but mostly facing all the battles solo with the avenger.
Was wondering whether this kit could go toe to toe with the enemies in late Bg2 and ToB or should I just use him as a druidic spellcaster later on? Thac0 and enemy saves would be a problem late game right?
And how does Totemic druids, Fighter/Druids MC/DC fare in similar situations?
So many questions, I know
!!!
Thankfully, 1 successful poison fail was enough to kill almost everything in the game and multiple web castings helped a ton too. Playing with a full party but mostly facing all the battles solo with the avenger.
Was wondering whether this kit could go toe to toe with the enemies in late Bg2 and ToB or should I just use him as a druidic spellcaster later on? Thac0 and enemy saves would be a problem late game right?
And how does Totemic druids, Fighter/Druids MC/DC fare in similar situations?
So many questions, I know
!!! 1
Comments
The Avenger forms are nice early on, but later on they just can't protect themselves nearly as well as the druid can with spells. On the plus side, the extra spells known are always great.
The Shapeshifter doesn't get any spellcasting bonuses over the vanilla druid, but their werewolf forms maintain usefulness much better. In particular, they're extremely good tanks, with both high resistances and fantastic AC. No armor sucks, but you can still have helmets and shields. And you can always cast Barkskin when you want a decent AC in human form.
Totemic? Never played it. But again, the difference with other druids smooths out over time. Your summons stop getting better after level 10, while the basic shapeshifts similarly get less useful.
In the long run, all the druid kits are going to be more spellcasters than anything else. Only a fighter/druid that can use weapons well will actually buck this trend. (Unless you use a mod that tweaks shapeshifting - my last party had Jaheira and Cernd spend almost all their time in fire elemental form at high levels)
So the kit advantages becomes kinda mellows out late game right, I see. I too thought that the shapeshift tweak was super good so didn't add it. Single classed characters do get the short end of the stick late game BG2 over MC/Dualled characters if I think about it.
Would you recommend a fighter/druid or a Berserker(9)->Druid? Are fighter HLA's worth crippling the druid's progress to Lv-15? Same question for Clerics and Thief kits as well. I think many of them also mellow down late game compared to their dual/multi cousins?
I was kinda doing it solo in a weird way, letting the charname do all the fights while others are just mules or prebuff casters. Druids level up so fast so I didn't have a problem with the xp splitting.
I know thinking solely about ToB/Late SoA viability is not a way to be looking at classes, but I just can't help overthinking about it!
With Ring of Gaax, excellent dexterity, potions etc etc it is possible to have acceptable AC, but nothing more - in ToB everything will hit you, but this is pretty much the case with all non-mage chars. But he will be able to outdamage almost everything.
As for losing fighter HLAs...If you play with a party, I don't find them crucial. Dual wielding Belm with 5 pips in clubs gives you 4.5 APR, which becomes 9 with Improved Haste, just one short of Greater Whirlwind and much longer lasting. Armour of Faith somewhat compensates for Hardiness, Magic Resistance for the...Magic Resistance HLA thingy and you don't need any other fighter HLAs in a party anyway. So, that part is okay.
I am kinda doing it a solo run. Plus I read that Critical strike was better than any other fighter HLA offensively.
Berserker 9/13 -> X seems to be more viable in solo than any other kits for single classes late game wise?
For soloing, I would personally go with multiclass F/D. Jump from 14 to 15 as a Druid will be far less painful and you get other good powers that you cannot compensate for without a party. Also, Hardiness + Armour of Faith sounds pretty cool.
Berserker -> X is, for me, the best combo overall, but if you are superpowergaming, you will roll Berserker -> Cleric or Berserker -> Mage
Aside from that most of your important late game usage is going to be utility or summoning. Healing party members perhaps, adding buffs and resistances, dispelling invisibility or certain magic effects. The poor Thac0 can be somewhat overcome with the sling. There's a couple cheap high enchantment ones available in early SoA and the game tends to dole out high enchantment bullets more generously than other ammo. So that can help at least making the occasional attack to chip in on damage and interrupting.
None of them claimed that Druids/Avenger are among the strongest choices. What they did say was it was very interesting and fun to use Insect Plague, Iron Skins, (Web and Sword spider for avenger) etc in BG1 plus Fire Elemental and Fire seeds etc in SoD and early BG2.
We have all heard about the Magezerker/Kensage combo over a million times now I believe. No need to diss on every other class option.
I really liked how the Avenger kit allowed Druid to be a very good frontliner and being able to almost kill anyone with some decent spell selections in BG1 + SoD. I guess it just reverts to a vanilla class like many other kits for their respective classes late SoA & ToB.
There are the high-level forms, but they're limited.
Earth elemental form is solid on offense (19 avg damage per hit, 2 APR, +4 enchantment) but also big so it gets stuck all the time. On defense, it's -5 AC but no Dex bonus, normal weapon immunity, and nothing else.
Fire elemental form goes up to 22 damage per hit with part of that fire, but only has 1 APR. It's also smaller so you won't get stuck, with the same physical defenses plus added fire immunity.
For contrast, let's compare what a typical BG series protagonist can pull off in the late game without shifting. AC? Cast Barkskin for AC 1, add in 18 dexterity for AC -3 before accessories. Two points worse. Weapon immunity? Hell trials, for immunity to normal and +1 weapons superseding the elemental forms. Damage? Let's use the Firetooth dagger, and assume 19 strength (either the belt which should be easy to spare by this point, or starting with 18 in BG1 and using a tome. 2d4+3+1d2+7 = 16.5 damage per hit at 2 APR, hits as +3. With ranged capability. You don't get the base THAC0 of 2, but you get +3 to hit from the weapon itself, which covers a good chunk of the difference. Overall, this setup is a little weaker than the elemental forms, but infinitely more flexible with the ability to cast spells, make ranged attacks, or even switch to a different weapon if the need arises.
The one exception here is the Shapeshifter's level 13+ greater werewolf form. That one does some truly unique things. It has just about the best AC around with -6 base, -4 from 20 Dex, and the ability to wear a shield (I recommend the Shield of the Lost). It has massive elemental and magic resistances, allowing you to reach immunity to fire, cold, and lightning with ease. And as of 2.6, it even grants regeneration. Just an amazing tank.
Incidentally, a Shapeshifter continues to get additional daily uses of greater werewolf form after level 13. One every two levels, up to seven total at level 25. At high levels, you get plenty of chances to shift back and forth.
The Avenger doesn't exactly revert to being vanilla either; you still have those extra spells known. You really can't go wrong memorizing a few instances of each of them.
I guess if I am not inclined to melee with a druid, any druid kit would be good enough as a caster-only role?
Also, that's just not the way I think about builds. I plan parties around a theme, and fitting the theme is more important than raw power. I'll optimize within those constraints, but they're still there. My last run chose Nalia as the party's sole thief over Imoen and Jan, for example. Why? Because she has that signet ring with 50% fire resistance, of course.
Yes, that was why I chose avenger over totemic. The summons don't level up past Lv 10 at all, and are WAY underpowered in the late game compared to the reliable Skeletons and Elementals.
I am now wondering whether to create a Berz9->Druid or F/D for my second playthrough. Maybe I will make up my mind after finishing the game first
The other weakness? Way too many important stats. You might need to make hard choices, like dumping Dex down to something middling in favor of the other important stats. Jaheira deals with this by shaving a bit off everything, which isn't optimal because of the way stat bonuses are set up.
You could always go for something that isn't a druid the second time around. Personally, I've always been fond of fighter/thief combinations as protagonists. Just a thought...