Changing the weapon proficiency system to the IWD one

SBlack

I never really liked the hyper specialized BG2 system. There are so many weapons in the game that you miss out on a lot of experimentation and options. It's also encourages a lot of meta gaming where you plan out who gets what weapon before you even start the game because you need to sort of your weapon choices during character creation to some degree.

I guess Beamdog decided to standardize the EEs on the BG2 system for the other games for simplicity with maintenance and importing. And having the BG2 system in BG1 doesn't hurt much because there isn't a lot of weapon variety there.
But while the BG1 system was too simple for the sheer variety in BG2 I think it went too far. The IWD system seems like a great middle ground. There is a component in the Tweaks Anthology mod to do that.

Here is how they compare:
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_Proficiency#Baldur.27s_Gate_II_.26_Enhanced_Editions
You can take Large Swords and wield long swords, scimitars and katanas. So that makes it a very good category. It makes sense that it contains a lot of items as that's the most common sword size IRL. I'd rather have ninja-tos and wakizashis under Short Swords, but that's very niche anyways.

Another great effect IMO is grouping all bows together. That fixes the issue that in BG1 the good bows are long bows, but in BG2 the short bows are arguably OP. Or at least a lot better. So with importing you can switch bows easily.
Also your casters can use slings and darts. And bastard swords become an option for two-handed sword people, though again that's niche.

Does anyone have played with that mod? Also how does this work when importing saves from a game that uses the vanilla system to the modded one? I assume I may have to fix the proficiencies with the editor, but that's not much work.

Satrhan

Hey, I was looking at the same thing. BG2's system just seems a bit restrictive, indeed forcing you to plan out everything from character creation, and making you miss out on using some items because they aren't optimal in every situation.

The IWD system does look like a middle ground between BG1 and BG2, but I'm not sure which would suit better. The IWD system does still leave a lot single weapon proficiencies like club, that should just be merged into maces really. Hammers too, probably. Spears and halberds aren't grouped either. And grouping bastard swords with two handed swords seems a bit counter intuitive, when bastard swords are used one handed in this game. Don't see much overlap in the skill needed for using darts and slings either.

Also looked into other mods that change the weapon system, like Scales of Balance, but so far I haven't found one that seems perfect, might actually just use BG1's system. What did you decide on?

SBlack

Satrhan wrote: »

And grouping bastard swords with two handed swords seems a bit counter intuitive, when bastard swords are used one handed in this game.

There is another component in the Tweaks Anthology that lets you wield them two-handed. It adds a special ability that changes the sword as needed. I found it useful with the anti-werewolf swords.

Don't see much overlap in the skill needed for using darts and slings either.

Probably not, but I currently have BG1 Edwin use darts and it works fine. Mostly because I already have Viconia and someone else use slings.
It's just one of those other cases where you have at least the option to try it out without being penalized.

What did you decide on?

I'm only towards the end of SoD at the moment. But also with the IWD system. As said the whole issue isn't as big in BG1, but I like it. Yeah, it could still be condensed a bit in some areas, but personally I wouldn't go all the way to the original BG1 either

There were some issues with some NPC's proficiencies being messed up when joining. But it's easy to look up what they are supposed to be and change it.

Danacm

I liked the iwd style mod, but there are enemies in Siege of dragonspear, that uses the bg2 prof system and if you use the mod, their weapon profs will be blank and weaken them.

SBlack

Danacm wrote: »

I liked the iwd style mod, but there are enemies in Siege of dragonspear, that uses the bg2 prof system and if you use the mod, their weapon profs will be blank and weaken them.

Mhh, from what I can tell they have proficiencies in EEKeeper. And ones that fit (like greatsword/halberd + two-handed style. Or bows + short sword). I can hardly check everyone, but I took a look at generic crusader enemies and some of the named ones.

Danacm

As i remember the original bg2 enemies not have any profs in weapons.

jmerry

The way things are handled for BG2 (EE) ... both the original BG1 proficiencies and the BG2 proficiencies exist in the system, though they show up in different ways on the character. Some flags in the main character for the BG1 proficiencies, effects for the BG2 proficiencies.

Most enemies use the BG1 proficiencies. Standard longsword-wielding drow warriors have two dots in "Large Swords", for examples. Some use the BG2 proficiencies instead, though it's spotty - likely places in which the enemies were tweaked in some way. Akae from Samia's band has BG1 proficiencies, but Samia doesn't, for example.

If you're going to change the proficiency system around, you need to watch for both sorts of enemies. In all parts of the EE series.

Satrhan

@jmerry, are you saying the tweaks component that changes the proficiencies doesn't work properly?

Looking at the .cre file for the drow warrior as you mentioned, EE keeper says they use the normal proficiency system and have pips in long sword. Looking at the same file in nearinfinity I can see the old style proficiencies, but they're all 0. Can't see the new proficiencies in there though.

jmerry

I'm not saying anything about that component, as I don't use it. I don't know whether it works fully or not. Each individual creature uses at most one of the proficiency styles; they may have points in the new or the old, but not both. And some mods may change them; SCS tends to apply new-style proficiencies to pretty much everything that uses manufactured weapons.

As for the drow warrior ... which one were you looking at? There are six creatures named "Drow Warrior". Five of them wield long swords. Two of them (CHEVIL06 and ohbdro01) have new-style proficiencies, while the rest have the old style. The "standard" I'm going with is UDDROW32 and UDDROW33 - 80 HP, 4000 XP, no shield.

Danacm

The tweaks component just re-adjust the new prof system and rename the existing profs but not modofy the cre files. So there may be bad profs in some creatures.

Satrhan

And that actually has impact on the gameplay right? Because in that case it might not really be worth it to install the tweak if a bunch of enemies end up not having proficiency in their equipped weapons.

Danacm

I found problems mainly in SOD, but not really in soa or tob when i last used that mod.
What i may try is the old bg1 prof system, idk is it works better or not.

jmerry

I'm guessing that the monsters which use the old BG1 proficiency system - most of them except in SoD - are unaffected by changing the BG2 proficiencies to the IWD model. The monsters which use BG2 proficiencies have problems, because after that naive change they have proficiency in the wrong weapons.

Whatever you do, you can't just edit proficiencies. You have to edit creature files too, and a lot of them.

Danacm

To solve, need to know what creatures use the bg2 prof system ? It is enough to change them to bg1 ?

Danacm

In the end, if you use the iwd or bg1 prof system you will have more weapons with profs. Maybe just easier to give the classes more starting prof and profs per levels in bg2 system, and the result will be similar.