Playing without a thief

MrSexton

Hi!
How do you find and disarm traps etc.? I know that you can force locks.
I'm looking to play a three man party (Defender, Priest of Helm, Sorcerer) on insane so I want to know if it's feasible first.

Pokota

You can find but not disarm traps - Clerics get a "Find Traps" spell that detects with 100% success.

Katzerchen

You can "disarm" some traps, but that'll cost you quite a few spells and requires metagaming.
Because you'll need to know what a trap does so that you can protect your sorcerer against the effect in question then have them trigger the trap. In some cases, "Mirror Image" will do the trick. The sorcerer walks into the trap, triggers it, mirror images are reduced by 1, trap is "disarmed".
Problem is, that some traps, as far as I remember, trigger more than once.
And, as far as I remember, some traps have effects where Mirror Image won't help. (Might be wrong, though.)

Selerel

As far as DISARMING traps...probably best to just have your character with most HPs, best saves, or best magic resist tank the damage, for the unavoidable ones at least.

Balrog99

A rabbit familiar has, I think a 50% chance of disarming traps. You can cast luck to up that to 55%. A bard song can up the luck another 5%, or more for a high level generic bard. Rabbits can also pickpocket potions to up their chances (Potions of Perception, Master Thievery, and Power add to Thief skills). Pickpocketing with familiars will add the items to their quickslots. You have to leave them out of your pack though, or they'll drop their items in your inventory and mark the items as 'unstealable' afterwards...

Balrog99

Addendum: rabbits can't pick locks but Knock spell opens all locks that can be picked normally by a thief. The potion that increases INT and DEX (can't remember the name) would likely also boost their trap finding/disarming skills but not positive about that. Cats and ferrets also work for this but their trap skills aren't as good to start with. Ferrets are awesome pickpockets though and cats excel at stealth scouting.

jmerry

Yes, those potions work for familiars. The animal familiars are all thieves with 18 base dexterity and no racial skill modifiers, with some predefined skill investments. Ferrets (LN) are best at picking pockets, rabbits (NN) are best at detecting/disarming traps, and cats (CN) are best at stealth.

The exact mechanics of getting potions (or other quickslot items) on a familiar:
- Put the items you want in a character's inventory. Preferably someone other than a thief or bard, so they're easy to steal from.
- Pick the victim's pockets. You have three slots to work with, and anything else is wasted.
- Save, then load the save. The first three items picked go into the familiar's quickslots and can be used. Class or ability requirements are irrelevant.
- If you ask the familiar to give their stolen stuff to you, or return the familiar to your pack, any stolen items are returned to you, and gain the "unstealable" flag so they can't go through the loop again.
- If, instead, you pick the familiar's pockets for those stolen items, the flag doesn't get added. So, if you have a bard and want to repeat things...

Familiar skill investments:
Ferret BG1: Pick Pockets 40, Hide in Shadows 15, Move Silently 15, Find Traps 15
Ferret SoA: Pick Pockets 65, Hide in Shadows 30, Move Silently 30, Find Traps 15
Ferret ToB: Pick Pockets 85, Hide in Shadows 50, Move Silently 50, Find Traps 55
Rabbit BG1: Find Traps 35, Hide In Shadows 10, Move Silently 10
Rabbit SoA: Find Traps 45, Hide in Shadows 20, Move Silently 20
Rabbit ToB: Find Traps 80, Hide in Shadows 50, Move Silently 50, Detect Illusion 50
Cat BG1: Hide in Shadows 55, Move Silently 55, Pick Pockets 5
Cat SoA: Hide in Shadows 89, Move Silently 89, Pick Pockets 20
Cat ToB: Hide in Shadows 89, Move Silently 89, Pick Pockets 50, Find Traps 55, Detect Illusion 60

Being an 18 Dex thief without a humanoid race is good for +10 Pick Pockets, +15 Open Locks, +5 Find Traps, and +10/+10 stealth. No bonus to Detect Illusion, and Set Traps is irrelevant without the ability. Each additional point of dexterity, up to 25, adds +5 to most skills - none to Detect Illusion, and stealth skills increase more slowly.

Balrog99

jmerry wrote: »

Yes, those potions work for familiars. The animal familiars are all thieves with 18 base dexterity and no racial skill modifiers, with some predefined skill investments. Ferrets (LN) are best at picking pockets, rabbits (NN) are best at detecting/disarming traps, and cats (CN) are best at stealth.

The exact mechanics of getting potions (or other quickslot items) on a familiar:
- Put the items you want in a character's inventory. Preferably someone other than a thief or bard, so they're easy to steal from.
- Pick the victim's pockets. You have three slots to work with, and anything else is wasted.
- Save, then load the save. The first three items picked go into the familiar's quickslots and can be used. Class or ability requirements are irrelevant.
- If you ask the familiar to give their stolen stuff to you, or return the familiar to your pack, any stolen items are returned to you, and gain the "unstealable" flag so they can't go through the loop again.
- If, instead, you pick the familiar's pockets for those stolen items, the flag doesn't get added. So, if you have a bard and want to repeat things...

Familiar skill investments:
Ferret BG1: Pick Pockets 40, Hide in Shadows 15, Move Silently 15, Find Traps 15
Ferret SoA: Pick Pockets 65, Hide in Shadows 30, Move Silently 30, Find Traps 15
Ferret ToB: Pick Pockets 85, Hide in Shadows 50, Move Silently 50, Find Traps 55
Rabbit BG1: Find Traps 35, Hide In Shadows 10, Move Silently 10
Rabbit SoA: Find Traps 45, Hide in Shadows 20, Move Silently 20
Rabbit ToB: Find Traps 80, Hide in Shadows 50, Move Silently 50, Detect Illusion 50
Cat BG1: Hide in Shadows 55, Move Silently 55, Pick Pockets 5
Cat SoA: Hide in Shadows 89, Move Silently 89, Pick Pockets 20
Cat ToB: Hide in Shadows 89, Move Silently 89, Pick Pockets 50, Find Traps 55, Detect Illusion 60

Being an 18 Dex thief without a humanoid race is good for +10 Pick Pockets, +15 Open Locks, +5 Find Traps, and +10/+10 stealth. No bonus to Detect Illusion, and Set Traps is irrelevant without the ability. Each additional point of dexterity, up to 25, adds +5 to most skills - none to Detect Illusion, and stealth skills increase more slowly.

Very nice details! When your familiar pickpockets potions, it gets the entire stack, not just one, right? I seem to remember it working that way, but not positive.

jmerry

Yes, pickpocketing takes the full stack. I've used the familiar trick fairly recently, grabbing a stack of master thievery potions this way.

JLE

I'd like to ask: Is there a point in Siege of Dragonspear (specifically) where it becomes practical to play without a thief in the party? Like are there any particularly important locks with good stuff behind them, or particularly deadly traps, from (say) chapter 10 onwards? I get the impression that there really isn't going to be much need for a thief in (say) the battle for Dragonspear, or the invasion of Avernus.

A particular reason I wonder about this, is the paucity of Thief NPC companions in SOD - where there was a huge surfeit of them in original BG1. (Imoen, Montaron, Safana, Coran, Alora, Skie and even Tiax.) In SOD, there's only Safana and Glint...

jmerry

What you're really asking: is there a point at which traps and locks stop being an issue? Because, of course, thieves do have other sorts of utility - just not anything that other classes can't approximate.

There are no traps or locks in Avernus. Also, the final boss can see through invisibility so it's very hard to backstab him.
The interior of Dragonspear Castle on the way to Avernus is a non-combat zone, and your last chance to change up your party before the climax.
The big battle in the Dragonspear courtyard does have traps - most notably, a field of spear traps that deal 7d6 piercing damage if you step on them. That's a bit off the main axis, near Ashatiel. And there are a few magical traps mixed in.
The traps in the courtyard can't be disarmed on your previous visit; they're not active at that time, so they can't trigger or be detected.