Gorion's 'Improved Alacrity' Magic Missiles?

Reigns

So I might be nitpicking here but...
One of the most exciting things for me was the fight between Gorion and Sarevok in very early stages of the game. Following their dialogue Goridon bombarded Sarevoks lackeys with a heaps of acid arrows, but most importantly, a chain of 3-4 magic missile spells with no cooldown between casts (a.k.a. Improved alacrity)

For me when I first saw it I thought was absolutely badass and it took all the way until BG2:ToB to be able to do this myself.

Why change the sequence of the fight? Why replace it with...a still spell? Boring.

DeathMachineMiyagi

Because a mage with improved alacrity is a mage who would almost certainly be able to cast basic defensive spells like stoneskin, mirror image and so forth? Because a mage who can cast improved alacrity is almost certainly a mage who would have more devastating spells to use against Sarevok than a bunch of magic missiles fired one after the next?

Because, in short, if Gorion had been an NPC capable of casting Improved Alacrity, he probably would have wiped the floor with BG1 Sarevok?

All of these are good reasons.

Silverstar

I miss the barrage of magic missiles too. Mechanical rules be damned, sometimes it's okay to do cool things for the sake of cinematics. As for Gorion not having stoneskin and other protective spells ready to go that could easily be blamed on him simply not having memorised them, if everything really has to be justified by the rules.

GygaxianProse

Let's face it. Gorion pulled an Obi-Wan.

Dee

@GygaxianProse and forgot to prepare "Khelben's Disembodied Voice" and "Obi-Wan's Posthumous Haunting". Supes akward.

begolf00

In my old playthroughs, Gorion was able to kill everyone but Sarevok. My first playtrhough of BG:EE Gorion failed to kill one of Sarevok's party members. He got really owned, never seen this before and I've played this game dozens of times. Has anyone else had this happen?

DeathMachineMiyagi

Silverstar said:

As for Gorion not having stoneskin and other protective spells ready to go that could easily be blamed on him simply not having memorised them, if everything really has to be justified by the rules.

So what you're saying is Gorion was a drooling idiot who, knowing he and his ward were in such great danger that they had to flee immediately, didn't bother to memorize any of the absolutely basic defensive spells every mage worth his salt relies on to survive. This despite being so high level that he can cast Improved Alacrity.

I don't buy it and I'm glad they changed it. Gorion in that battle always struck me as a man who very obviously threw the fight, and for no sensible reason; now he looks like a man who is genuinely battling for his life only to run into some rotten luck and lose.

Dr_Atomic

I think this would have been a great way for Beamdog to troll the fanbase:

Gorion: Casts Protection From Magical Weapons
Gorion: Casts Imprisonment - Sarevok

Roll credits.

stygga

@begolf00 he didn't kill everyone in the original, he casted power word sleep on tamoko. In this one, he uses otilukes sphere on her instead. Other than that he kills everyone. JUST like he always did. You just thought he killed Tamoko before because she fell down (went to sleep).

Seagloom

I always considered this a case of storytelling trumping game mechanics. Sort of like Irenicus's cut scene spellcasting power that mysteriously goes by the wayside each time the player fights him. The impression I was left with the first time I saw this fight was that Gorion was a badass. Yet despite his magical knowledge and combat experience, he was no match for Sarevok.

Gorion throws everything he has at Sarevok and is eventually reduced to coming at him with a dagger. It shows the player how threatening Sarevok is, in a sudden, visceral way.

Besides, who is to say Gorion even has knowledge of stoneskin or the like? The majority of D&D mages are lucky to scribe 1/4 of available spells into their spellbook. That charname and her party's mages can learn nearly everything under the sun is extremely unusual--even for a magic rich setting like the Forgotten Realms.

That said, I doubt BioWare's writers had that in mind at the time. It's clear they were working within the limitations of BG's art assets, and cared more about what this scene conveyed than its accuracy within the setting or mechanics.

Silverstar

DeathMachineMiyagi said:

So what you're saying is Gorion was a drooling idiot who, knowing he and his ward were in such great danger that they had to flee immediately, didn't bother to memorize any of the absolutely basic defensive spells every mage worth his salt relies on to survive. This despite being so high level that he can cast Improved Alacrity.

I don't buy it and I'm glad they changed it. Gorion in that battle always struck me as a man who very obviously threw the fight, and for no sensible reason; now he looks like a man who is genuinely battling for his life only to run into some rotten luck and lose.

I'm not making any claims about Gorion whatsoever. I'll leave that to you and Reigns. I stick with what the game tells me; that he's a powerful mage that has raised the protagonist. It doesn't say what spells he has in his book, what "level" he is, what "class" he is or what preparations he made/had time to make before leaving, spell memorization included. Nor does it say anything about his behaviour in battle or if he's even very accustomed to it.

What I did say is I miss how he peppered Sarevok with Magic Missiles too, that it was really cool (which is opinion), that it's okay to not stick entirely to rules when making a cutscene type thing (also opinion) and that if you have to justify his ability to cast said missiles at said speed with mechanics, that being "improved alacrity" apparently, then you can also use the mechanics of memorization to explain why he did not cast protective spells. Not once did I put words into Gorion's mouth so to speak.

The whole scenario could've been avoided easily by casting Invisibility (which lasts for ages); if I were to make assumptions about Gorion and call him an idiot for what he did or didn't do, then that's the scenario I'd pull up.

begolf00

@stygga hahaha lol. This made my day. All this time I've been playing and I never even realized Tamoko was in the ambush. Know wonder I thought he killed everyone. Ooooh you are a smart one:)

Reigns

All valid arguments to and against, and I agree with all of them somewhat. I however, as has been mentioned by a few, like the idea of getting creative just for the sake of a cinematic. What about Irenicus in Wakeens Promenade? Blowing up all those elite level mages back to back. AD&D not possible sure, but damn awesome to spectate. I also like the idea of there being things that can be done/casted/whatever which are not documented and can only be used by those who would create them.

IntoTheDarkness

Oh purists.... it's few things BG:EE is vastly superior to the original.

CaptRory

I really liked the new scene. Maybe a little bit more than the original. But I still love the original.

Vissious

iirc the manual I owned from long ago listed Gorion as a level 20-ish mage. And Candlekeep was a depository for just about all of the mainstream magical knowledge within the land, due in part to the fact that to enter would often require sponsorship from a mage and the price of such was often a donated spellbook.

So. Gorion (an ex-adventurer, to boot) really should have obliterated that ambush; he'd have access not only to every bread-and butter illusion/abjuration defensive spell but also spell trigger, and that is when mages start to dominate the battlefield. That is, if we were being total ad&d nerds about the whole thing. But we probably shouldn't, because it would deprive us of a throroughly enjoyable epic saga

Silverstar

I like the new one too. I like everything in EE so far... there are certainly things I don't think needed changing, but I haven't seen anything that's changed for the worse yet.

CaptRory

I'd be surprised if Gorion hadn't been retired for a long time. So he may not have been on the top of his game still. It'd prolly have been about 20 years since he became your Foster Father.

sandorclegane

gorion tore all the pages out of his spellbook to sell as scrolls to fund his travels... or last night with cherry at the candlekeep den of debauchery.

brtl33

Vissious said:

iirc the manual I owned from long ago listed Gorion as a level 20-ish mage. And Candlekeep was a depository for just about all of the mainstream magical knowledge within the land, due in part to the fact that to enter would often require sponsorship from a mage and the price of such was often a donated spellbook.

So. Gorion (an ex-adventurer, to boot) really should have obliterated that ambush; he'd have access not only to every bread-and butter illusion/abjuration defensive spell but also spell trigger, and that is when mages start to dominate the battlefield. That is, if we were being total ad&d nerds about the whole thing. But we probably shouldn't, because it would deprive us of a throroughly enjoyable epic saga

Perhaps he's specialized in alteration and can't cast the abjuration protective spells and because of his pride he doesn't use illusion spells (it's all just slight of hand anyway used by common magicians and con artists), so he goes for an all out assault of quick casting attack spells.

It's not like anyone else is there to tank for him.

The_Cheeseman

I don't think it's really fair to claim Sarevok should get owned by Gorion. Sarevok is a 16th-level fighter with a special kit ("Deathbringer"), who also happens to have god-powers channeled through his custom-made armor and weapon. There is a LOT of legitimate yet undefined power, there. Obviously, the author intended Sarevok to be more powerful than Gorion, or else he wouldn't have written-in a deathmatch between them in the first place, right?

RedGuard

@The_Cheeseman Agreed. Sarevok is meant to be conveyed as more powerful (imo).

I like the battle scene over the original for the most part. I found the original a bit underwhelming in terms of spells and I never really liked it when he went in with his dagger because it exposes the hokey nature of some of the fight animations, which look even more out of place if it's two guys swinging at each other and missing for the most part (considering they're standing right next to one another and one is wielding a large sword and the other a tiny dagger).

Though I will say I'm not too fond of the 'explosion' that happens when Sarevok deals the death blow. The standard death animation may be a bit hokey itself, but I at least did get a better sense of Sarevok dealing the final blow in the original.

The_Cheeseman

@RedGuard That explosion is Sarevok's special attack, "Deathbringer Assault." I don't want to spoil anything, but it gets pretty darn mean at a later time. Suffice it to say, not many creatures in the game can really take that hit without getting one-shotted, so Gorion didn't really stand a chance. I thought it was pretty awesome that they added that little detail.

DeathMachineMiyagi

The_Cheeseman said:

I don't think it's really fair to claim Sarevok should get owned by Gorion. Sarevok is a 16th-level fighter with a special kit ("Deathbringer"), who also happens to have god-powers channeled through his custom-made armor and weapon. There is a LOT of legitimate yet undefined power, there. Obviously, the author intended Sarevok to be more powerful than Gorion, or else he wouldn't have written-in a deathmatch between them in the first place, right?

Which is exactly why its good he no longer uses Improved Alacrity. In BG:EE, he is less powerful than Sarevok, no question. He doesn't mysteriously have a HLA that he uses to dish out a bunch of level 1 spells.

I dunno, I just like it when cutscenes actually make sense within the framework of the story. I never took Gorion's battle with Sarevok seriously before because Gorion so very obviously had a death wish. The attack with the dagger at the end especially rubs it in your face.

Now, though the battle still turns decisively against him quite quickly, Gorion seems to be making a genuine effort to win...only to be confronted with a dispel magic and a really luck Deathbringer Assault that finishes him off. As I said in my previous thread, your wise mentor no longer resembles a palooka taking a dive in the fourth.

RedGuard

@The_Cheeseman Yeah, I figured it was a special move related to him being a Deathbringer. However I just prefer the final blow to be a stab or slash.

Plus it technically goes against the opening movie of BG2 which shows Sarevok running Gorion through with his sword (though with BG:EE limited in-game graphics, you could just argue he exploded a second or two after being stabbed. lol).

stygga

Honestly in my bg1 games, gorion always dies in between hits by sarevok... THAT was ridiculous.

Zeckul

begolf00 said:

In my old playthroughs, Gorion was able to kill everyone but Sarevok. My first playtrhough of BG:EE Gorion failed to kill one of Sarevok's party members. He got really owned, never seen this before and I've played this game dozens of times. Has anyone else had this happen?

Gorion never killed everyone, he always casted sleep on Tamoko. That's why you actually get to meet Tamoko later in the game.

DeathMachineMiyagi

Zeckul said:

begolf00 said:

In my old playthroughs, Gorion was able to kill everyone but Sarevok. My first playtrhough of BG:EE Gorion failed to kill one of Sarevok's party members. He got really owned, never seen this before and I've played this game dozens of times. Has anyone else had this happen?

Gorion never killed everyone, he always casted sleep on Tamoko. That's why you actually get to meet Tamoko later in the game.

Even in vanilla BG, he makes short work of those two ogres Sarevok brings with him, pretty much always.

RedGuard

stygga said:

Honestly in my bg1 games, gorion always dies in between hits by sarevok... THAT was ridiculous.

Yeah, that happens pretty often too. Another short coming of the in-game engine, I suspect.

Steezy

This is one of the few changes that I really like. A powerful mage like Gorion shooting babby missiles was silly.

Rilbur

I have to agree, the new fight scene looks much, much drabber -- but it's also much, much more believable. He throws up defenses -- including stoneskin and mirror image -- before kicking but with fireballs and other fun spells, but he's taken down by a 'lucky' dispell magic that screws him over.

Frankly, I don't miss the 'show-off' fight at all. I like the new version -- especially since it doesn't raise any false hopes.