Flaming Fist soldier south of Beregost

TurboPubx

I have a question about the soldier who confronts you in this area:

http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar3800.htm

In my EE play-through as a Blackguard I killed him and got a -5 reputation penalty. I distinctly remember that killing him would not cause any reputation loss in the original release. I felt this was justified since this jackass comes up to you and tries to arrest you with absolutely no probable cause. Whereas all other Flaming Fist soldiers work in large groups, this guy is alone, which further reinforces my opinion that he is not a genuine authority figure.

Is my memory of the original game correct? Does anyone else feel like the intent of the creators was that killing him would not bring any reputation penalties?

Linkamus

a Good character has every right to resist arrest if there is no evidence against him. So I agree that there should be no reputation loss for killing him.

The_Cheeseman

No, as I recall killing him always caused reputation loss. You're murdering a law enforcement officer, after all. It's entirely possible to end that encounter through simple dialogue without admitting guilt or resorting to violence, and that is what a good-aligned character should do. Choosing to kill a man instead of trying to reason with him seems pretty evil to me.

Syfusion

Actually I remember it as if you choose the "give up" option, the guy will attack you but you get no rep loss. However it looks like they changed that so no matter what you take a rep hit for killing him.

Deucetipher

Nah, I remember vanilla had no rep loss, cause that was how my pally got his first suit of plate (don't look at me that way -- I was 12). Arguably, since it is pretty easy to avoid the fight, the rep loss makes more sense.

Linkamus said:

a Good character has every right to resist arrest if there is no evidence against him. So I agree that there should be no reputation loss for killing him.

A good character, maybe/maybe not, depending on context. A lawful character, no. He would go fight the charges in court, which was my original thought way back when

Cyricist

Yeah. I killed him in my evil game too, lost 6 rep. SIX. That's a lot. My reputation was at that point only 4, so when I arrived in Nashkel, all the guards were hostile to me. So... yeah. Not cool, game.

He openly accosts you in the wild, is a total dick about it, and in order to avoid a fight you've gotta go through several dialogue options. It was perfectly fine when killing him had no penalty, but now it's an absurd encounter that is a giant waste of time. I mean, the dude is only worth 15 experience points - he was clearly intended to be killed by most non-Good parties, because of his attitude and location.

Aberdash

Linkamus said:

a Good character has every right to resist arrest if there is no evidence against him. So I agree that there should be no reputation loss for killing him.

You are killing someone for doing their job. I don't see how a good character would do that.

elminster

At least this way they are consistent about it. Laurel north of the gnoll stronghold and the flaming fist guy who approaches you in the gibberling mountains both cause you to lose reputation if you kill them. It was that way with them in the original game too. Personally I liked being able to get a piece of platemail very early, but it isn't very consistent gameplay wise if you can kill some members of law enforcement/paladins who are located in the wilderness but not others (without a reputation loss that is).

Oxford_Guy

You can still get plate mail w/o reputation loss if you kill defend Viconia from the Flaming Fist guy that's after her, but then don't let her into your party (though she's always welcome in my party of misfits, even with the -2 Rep loss)

Tie_Fighter

I too was surprised at the rep loss, but it does make a bit of sense...and I mean, if you kill him, steal his stuff, and then go to a temple and buy the rep back, that is still a net gain of gold, isn't it?

Deucetipher

Not even close. Moving from 5->6 cost me 400 alone

EDIT: May have been 4->5

Konabuga

Yeah, I killed him. No regrets about it either. Except when I recruited Dorn, my rep dropped more and the Amnish soldiers at Nashkel attacked me. Heh. Had to reload and do some quests to raise the rep to a point where villagers were not chasing me with pitchforks.

Tie_Fighter

Deucetipher said:

Not even close. Moving from 5->6 cost me 400 alone

EDIT: May have been 4->5

Hmm, ok...remembered it as cheaper. Oh well.

ajwz

Linkamus said:

a Good character has every right to resist arrest if there is no evidence against him. So I agree that there should be no reputation loss for killing him.

More to the point, harrassing and attacking people who just happen to be passing by is a chaotic evil action.

Tie_Fighter

ajwz said:

Linkamus said:

a Good character has every right to resist arrest if there is no evidence against him. So I agree that there should be no reputation loss for killing him.

More to the point, harrassing and attacking people who just happen to be passing by is a chaotic evil action.

Ah, but reputation is how good other people perceive you to be, isn't it? So just like in real life, if you kill a police officer, even he is being a d**k, you are going to jail for it. Wait, that's not a good comparison. But yeah. I like it like this.

Eleutheros

If you roleplay a good character then you try to resolve conflicts without resorting to violence. In this case, that means choosing the appeasing dialogue option. You don't kill someone because they have an attitude.

ajwz

Eleutheros said:

If you roleplay a good character then you try to resolve conflicts without resorting to violence. In this case, that means choosing the appeasing dialogue option. You don't kill someone because they have an attitude.

Disagree - you cant roleplay by "Choosing an appeasing dialogue option". How one character might try to appease is different from another, and just because they didn't select the "correct" option, it doesn't mean they were looking for conflict.

waardenius

Killing him definitely did not cause a reputation drop in vanilla BG. I know this since I tend to play evil and unforgiving characters.

I always thought this made sense since this guy is very much out of order; if I remember correctly he attacks you outright on suspicion alone, as long as you don't make an effort to convince him othervise.

The game should not punish you with a six point reputation drop simply for not covering in front of abusive law officers.

Andtalath

I'm fully certain that it did not cause rep loss.
I remembered is wll as cheap platemail time.

DrEast

It's certainly a Good action to assert your innocence and then realize you have no way to PROVE it (warm smile and honest demeanor?), but that dialogue option leads to him being hostile -> rep loss (or running away, but he's in the center of the map and then in the wrong). This needs to be fixed.

Eleutheros

ajwz said:

Disagree - you cant roleplay by "Choosing an appeasing dialogue option". How one character might try to appease is different from another, and just because they didn't select the "correct" option, it doesn't mean they were looking for conflict.

Yeah, I see your point. I oversimplified. However, I still disagree with @Linkamus. I don't think a good character can kill a law enforcer for trying to bring you in, even if the charges are wrong (but I'm no D&D expert!). When he attacks you after you lay down your weapons it is an entirely different matter, and I agree that you shouldn't lose reputations points (at least not as many) for defending yourself then.

Still, I just played through the encounter and by just saying that you're not a bandit and by making reasonable argument he just walked away...no killing and no reputation points lost

Linkamus

Well, I'm kind of going by the U.S. constitution which gives us the right not to be detained or arrested unless there is reasonable cause. Someone that is a *Chaotic* good character would *definitely* recognize this right not in a constitutional view (obviously since this this game doesn't take place in the U.S.), but a philosophical one, and defend themselves if necessary.

Mechalibur

While it is possible to pass him without a confrontation, your character doesn't necessarily know, and at least one reasonable dialogue option can result in him attacking you, in which case I see no issue with defending yourself, as he makes it clear he wants to kill you.

Basically, the way I saw the conversation was my character insisted he wasn't a bandit, and said the Flaming Fist mercenary could bring us back to Nashkel to sort things out. He opted to try and kill us instead. I feel that what my character did was perfectly reasonable for a lawful and good aligned person, so the reputation loss was a bit of a pain. But then again, my character isn't very charismatic, so I can see how it ending in violence, even though that was not the intent.

I suppose a more pragmatic reason there shouldn't be a reputation loss is that no one saw me commit the act (at least, not to my knowledge).

Malban

Mechalibur said:

While it is possible to pass him without a confrontation, your character doesn't necessarily know, and at least one reasonable dialogue option can result in him attacking you, in which case I see no issue with defending yourself, as he makes it clear he wants to kill you.

Agreed, I don't recall the specific dialogue but even when you choose the first option (something to the effect of "What, my smile and demeanor?"*) which isn't antagonistic (though a bit snarky) he attacks you.

In this case, your are approached while traveling by a vigilante who accuses you of a crime you did not commit. When you respond in a non-confrontational way he attacks. You are within your rights to defend yourself, you were attacked unprovoked.

If you choose the option to antagonize him I can see a reputation loss (though I feel 5 is a bit steep, 2 would be more reasonable).

*I'm at work, if someone could get the transcript of the actual options I'd appreciate it.

topymacijie

Pretty sure that it never did cause a reputation loss, because I would always take advantage of this and kill him to get a free set of plate mail early on in the game.

Cuv

Just checked the REPUTATI.2da for BG:EE There is no penalty for killing a flaming fist at 1st level... but beyond that it goes up. I tried it in game with an 11th level character and my rep dropped by 6

[spoiler=General dlg options]
And if you choose the "you got the wrong guys", then "why..." He will let you go
[/spoiler]

Foune

Strange that you don't lose reputation when you defend Viconia from a Flaming Fist soldier, only when you recruit her.

HaHaCharade

Charm people and let other mobs kill them. Cheap way to not lose rep. Muhaha.