Does Beamdog plan on doing anything about this?
Symbiosis
Member Posts: 4
Greetings!
I used to play a thief character with the Ninjatō of the Scarlet Brotherhood in one hand and Kundane in the other hand to crank up as much APR as possible. It was a lot of fun, which is why I feel like starting all over again from Baldur's Gate 1 with something close but not identical!
I've decided to pick a Blade to beat the whole saga, but I'd like to change at least one weapon in my build. Ninjatō is a no-brainer so I'll keep it, that leaves me with Kundane to swap.
Now, the thing is, I always give Belm to someone else... that leaves me with few options.
I do remember something about throwing daggers adding 1 APR to the main hand provided they were given to the main hand, and that was even if you were in melee mode.
Suddenly, the idea of wielding a dagger that I'll both throw and use in melee really inspires me! It would become my main weapon in place of Ninjatō and serve as a bow, which is something I've never really tried. Firetooth seems ideal for that purpose, combined with the Ninjatō in the offhand. Until then, this would lead me to use Dagger of Venom in BG1. How perfect for a rogue-like character!
So... is this still possible with the current version of the game?
More importantly, does Beamdog consider this APR combo a bug to fix? I think there was a debate whether this was legit or not and I really, really, REALLY don't want to start Baldur's Gate 1 to read in one year playing Baldur's Gate 2 - yes, I'm slow - that the next patch will deprive me of that possibility.
Could someone point me to a clear answer regarding this matter, if there was any? If not, could someone from Beamdog tell me if this is meant to be corrected?
Thank you for your time.
I used to play a thief character with the Ninjatō of the Scarlet Brotherhood in one hand and Kundane in the other hand to crank up as much APR as possible. It was a lot of fun, which is why I feel like starting all over again from Baldur's Gate 1 with something close but not identical!
I've decided to pick a Blade to beat the whole saga, but I'd like to change at least one weapon in my build. Ninjatō is a no-brainer so I'll keep it, that leaves me with Kundane to swap.
Now, the thing is, I always give Belm to someone else... that leaves me with few options.
I do remember something about throwing daggers adding 1 APR to the main hand provided they were given to the main hand, and that was even if you were in melee mode.
Suddenly, the idea of wielding a dagger that I'll both throw and use in melee really inspires me! It would become my main weapon in place of Ninjatō and serve as a bow, which is something I've never really tried. Firetooth seems ideal for that purpose, combined with the Ninjatō in the offhand. Until then, this would lead me to use Dagger of Venom in BG1. How perfect for a rogue-like character!
So... is this still possible with the current version of the game?
More importantly, does Beamdog consider this APR combo a bug to fix? I think there was a debate whether this was legit or not and I really, really, REALLY don't want to start Baldur's Gate 1 to read in one year playing Baldur's Gate 2 - yes, I'm slow - that the next patch will deprive me of that possibility.
Could someone point me to a clear answer regarding this matter, if there was any? If not, could someone from Beamdog tell me if this is meant to be corrected?
Thank you for your time.
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Comments
The only plausible "fix" here without changing things at a pretty deep level would be to make the daggers that can be used this way (the Boomerang Dagger and Firetooth) weaker by removing the +APR effect. I don't expect that to happen.
Throwing weapons cannot be placed in the off hand at all; they're main hand weapons only, even in melee mode. So if you're doing this, the weapon that gets the extra attack is always the throwing dagger. The throwing mode also can't be dual-wielded; if you're throwing it and holding a weapon in your off hand, the effects of that off-hand weapon will be ignored.
Also ... as a Blade, you're not specializing in any weapon. You'll have lots of different proficiencies, so you'll be able to switch to different weapons and remain effective whenever what you've found points that way.
Could you elaborate on why this is unlikely to you?
The mechanics of this are odd, indeed. I can't remember how it works!
Do you mean the offhand weapon gets inactive or that you can use it but its benefits - namely APR - are nullified? Also, does this mean single weapon style would apply during throwing mode if Ninjatō is in the offhand?
Sorry to ask such technical questions, but you're obviously well-versed in the game's mechanics.
Allow me to express a different opinion with all due respect!
While it is true that Blades don't specialize in any particular weapon it doesn't remove the need to plan out way ahead what you intend to play since pips are scarce.
The entire Blade kit revolves around the possibility to dual wield effectively which on its own already requires one to invest three pips. Now, granted, two pips are enough to be reasonably effective but I want that poisonous hit from Ninjatō badly. It's not like with Kundane where it doesn't matter if it hits or not. +4 THAC0 for Ninjatō is bad enough and I know for a fact that Blades share the same crappy THAC0 tables with thieves so they struggle with THAC0 in general. Reducing that penalty to +2 isn't insignificant to me, so three pips.
Starting from Candlekeep, I believe it's also s a good idea to invest one pip in short/long bows to avoid melee at first - I fear critical hits more than anything since I don't do reloads - without being useless. I think it's even more interesting with the Blade since its offensive spins work with ranged weapons.
So we're down to four pips already.
Next, since I don't want to use Belm, I'll need to invest one pip in scimitars for Ninjatō and another one in daggers.
So we're now talking about six pips which require me to get to level... 16, if I remember correctly. Level 16 to have a fully operational build without making any mistake. That doesn't make me feel like I have much room for manoeuvre!
Now let's assume I start using daggers and learn that I'll have to use short swords again because some patch decided that Firetooth needed an APR nerf, it would force me to wait level 20 to have my build online.
With party of six that's waiting quite a while, and that's a pain in the neck!
So... lots of different proficiencies? I don't know, man. Technically this is true but that happens at the end of the game when it doesn't really matter anymore.
That is why I'm looking for a clear answer to come online as soon as possible and avoid an unpleasant surprise. Using a bow and cowering with my little Dagger of Venom until I grow stronger is part of the fun but I want that out of the way early in BG2 to dual-wield and tank.
Could you explain why you don't expect that to happen? There've been a lot of changes since the original game, some could easily be called hard nerfs whether they were justified or not. For instance, I remember FoA +5 sparked a controversy when it was fixed to prevent any haste due to free action making the +5 version weaker than its lesser counterparts. What's to say it won't happen again with throwing daggers?
It's quite odd. Does this mean throwing a dagger while holding Ninjatō counts as having no weapon in the offhand? In other words, could Single Weapon Style apply as the offhand weapon is nullified? Or is it just the effects of the offhand weapons that won't transfer to your main weapon (yes, I'm talking about APR) and you can actually use the offhand weapon in conjunction with your main weapon? Sorry about the technicality of my questions, you're obviously well-versed in the game's mechanics and my memory is too blurry on this matter to be of any help.
Lots of different proficiencies? Switching between lots of weapons? With all due respect, I don't know man.
I usually play rogue-like characters so I have some experience with their proficiencies and you don't always have much room for manoeuvre. The Blade is one of those cases. Granted, what you say is technically true at some point near the end of the game, but the path to get there is quite tricky and deserves a warning in my opinion.
First, the whole Blade kit revolves around the possibility to dual wield. It's usually the objective and the first game is an obstacle course to slowly build that possibility, which implies that you'll need to invest three pips over the course of the saga.
Now, yes, two pips are usually enough to be efficient since they'll remove any THAC0 penalty to the main hand. No one really cares that Kundane of Belm hits once per round, so most will be content with two pips. However, for a Blade who can use Ninjatō (a +3 weapon) and its poisonous effect, it's something to consider. One hit from Ninjatō actually makes a difference against casters and since Blades don't exactly have the best THAC0 (they share the same crappy table with thieves, so I know) reducing the penalty to -2 means something.
Also, while warriors can more or less ignore/postpone their investment to dual wield due to their excellent base THAC0, this is not the case for the Blade who struggles already with hitting. Going in with a +4 or a +2 penalty on top of it is debilitating and shouldn't be tried in my opinion. With most thieves, you can backstab to compensate poor THAC0 but as you are well aware, a Blade can't do so.
So yes, we're down to three pips already.
Add to that the Scimitar / Wakizashi / Ninjatō proficiency to wield Ninjatō of the Scarlet Brotherhood/Belm before that, plus a pip in short/long bows at the beginning of the game since I want some good range to avoid any melee. It's well-known that melee is brutal in BG1 and it's especially true if you play a Blade that has no protection against critical hits in a no-reload run. That's a no-no until you can cast a few spells to counter this, so a bow it is.
So... five pips, and we still haven't discussed the main weapon.
Let's assume I pick daggers first and read later on that Firetooth was nerfed, that would force me to pick short swords again. So two pips.
Therefore, to be a fully operational dual wielder with one mistake in your proficiencies, you need seven pips, and a Blade needs to wait to get those until level... 20!! Yes, level 20! In a full party of six, that's somewhere near the middle of SoA.
That's a really long time to enjoy your build to its fullest. Without any mistake, you're down to level 16, which is long already but somewhat reasonable.
That's why I don't want to any bad surprise. I'm commited to wait until level 16 to feel whole, no more. I'd feel more comfortable with a generic thief or a fighter, because one doesn't need so much pips while the other has a lot of pips to make use of. They come online much sooner, while the Blade is stuck with Offensive Spin applied to bows for a while.
By level 32, sure, you have plenty of proficiencies to pick from... which is true for any other class.
Weapon styles only apply if you're actually fighting in melee. Throw a weapon with a shield in the off hand, and you get the shield's equip effects (AC usually) but no bonus from weapon/shield style. Throw a weapon with the off hand empty, and you get nothing from the off hand, including no bonus from single-weapon style. Throw a weapon with a weapon in the off hand, and you get nothing from the off hand - no equip effects, no bonuses or penalties from any weapon style, no off hand attacks. Your attacks even get animated as if your off hand is empty.
If that throwing weapon also has a melee mode and you switch to it, then things are different. Now you're actually attacking in melee, so weapon styles apply, off-hand weapons add their equip effects, and all that.
You say it won't be ready until level 16 or maybe 20? What a coincidence. Some of the weapons you want won't be available until then, or even later. The Boomerang Dagger? Cast a level 7 mage spell to start the quest. If you're not casting it from a scroll, that's 1.5 million XP on the mage and your bard is at least level 16 or 17 already. Firetooth? That's well into the Underdark sequence, and you've piled up hundreds of thousands of XP since leaving for Spellhold. You'll easily be level 20 or more by then. Ninja-To of the Scarlet Brotherhood? You can't even equip that until at least level 24. Belm and Kundane are about the only weapons in this build that you're likely to actually pick up early, and the latter only because that quest leads into the bard stronghold.
And that says nothing of what your other party members might want. Let Jaheira wield Belm with a shield? Very solid, especially with a strength-boosting item. Remember, you have a party - they have their needs too.
Another possibility, if you're going with daggers - use them as your ranged option in BG1. Either take the proficiency early and use it early, or take it late.
Ok, it's much clearer now. Thanks!
Isn't that off topic?
I never said the problem was specifically with Ninjatō or Firetooth. I said that to be a, quote, "fully operational dual wielder", you need to be level 20 or 16... and I was replying to your idea that Blades have lots of proficiencies and weapons to choose from.
I don't think, in general, that's true. That is until you reach the end of the game (saga) when all classes have lots of options.
Even if I could get my hands on Firetooth and Ninjatō in Baldur's Gate 1, I wouldn't be able to use them effectively due to the lack of pips. That WAS my point, and I want to dual wield BEFORE I end up using those weapons.
That said, it's true the third pip is kinda linked with Ninjatō. I wouldn't spit on that third pip though, even without Ninjatō since Blades' THAC0 is crap. That's a nice investment reaching level 16/20 once you get your melee weapons covered, especially since it will be of greater use later on with Ninjatō.
Anyways, I consider the beginning of SoA to be more of less the moment I want to dual wield, with or without APR weapons. At level 12, I can have two pips in dual wielding, one in long bows, and two pips allocated to my melee weapons. Although incomplete and not fully operational, this allows some great effective combinations.
Regarding APR weapons, I did mention Belm as an option before using the Ninjatō and it's easy to get early. Boomerang Dagger can also be obtained as soon as chapter 2, can't it? You just need to buy a scroll in the Adventurer’s Mart from the lady upstairs if I'm not mistaken.
About throwing daggers in bg1, that's a sound possibility. You're right. I just prefer putting more range between me and my foes. Throwing daggers are great, they're just not the safest option.
Consider this: my last playthroughs were with a monk and two thieves... see what I'm getting at? Ahah yes, you guessed it, they were all highly susceptible to critical hits and this almost drove me nuts! I'm kinda rigid on the no-reload rule, it absolutely spoils my fun when I see my character die and I'm disgusted with one-shots. So yeah... safety first until I can hide between images and stoneskins on a regular basis.
That additional range is also why I usually pick long bows over short bows, despite short bows being an excellent - if not better - option for the entire saga. I also place my character in the middle of the star formation or way in the back, so you see, I'm the complete coward. Rogue-like characters suit me so well!
About Jaheira, I love giving her Gnasher/Blackwood and a shield for a while. She's usually my tank I prefer the effectiveness of Gnasher vs casters over raw damage for most of SoA.
By the way, no comment on why you don't expect these changes to happen, regarding magical daggers?
Beamdog seem very hesitent about changing weapons that function like Bioware intended. I cannot document where they have stated that, but I would consider it a lost cause to get it fixed - since it would be consider to be working as intended….