Whats the most op class against mind flayers ?

BardsSuck_

Title, which class can crap on powerful mindflayers like alhoon and normal ones the most.

Post your thoughts.

jmerry

Shaman. Your dance summons are completely immune to both psionics and intelligence drain. Just cast a Chaotic Commands on yourself so you won't be stunned out of the dance, and let your summons take care of everything.

Dharius

Apart from the Shaman mentioned above, most parties I made have had similar successes/failures with illithids. At least one party member always has weaker intelligence, weaker saves or weaker AC which makes facing them a challenge.

Chaotic Commands, Haste, the Greenstone Amulet, Potions of Genius, the Psion's Blade and of course not getting too close to them all help a lot though.

jmerry

Yeah, I aim for party-wide protection in illithid-heavy areas. Everyone gets either unbeatable spell saves or Chaotic Commands, even if I have to dip into consumables. The more people I have to split up the melee attacks, the better. If anyone takes too many hits and is one hit short of death, they get to retreat for a few rounds.

If you have access to 7th level mage spells, summoned magical swords also have full immunity to psionics and intelligence drain. That's not as good as the unlimited free army shamans get, but it's still a very good way to supplement your forces.

Balrog99

Skeleton warriors are cheap summons that make mincemeat of mind-flayers. Immune to psionics and intelligence drain.

jmerry

Skeleton warriors are immune to stun, sleep, and charm. That isn't a full immunity to psionics, like the shaman summons and magical swords have. If you're playing with SCS, in which illithids frequently use a wider range of psionic spells including Ballistic Attack (single-target damage), Detonate (area damage), and Psionic Maze (maze), the difference is keenly felt.
Skeleton warriors also aren't immune to intelligence drain. They start at 16 Int so they're fairly tough, but they still die if they get hit four times in melee.

StummvonBordwehr

There is a mod that makes the skeletons immune to int drain, but its not so in the main game as jmerry says.

I have also found the skeletons squishy against umber hulks. So one should send in a cloud kill before unloading the skeletons, and be prepaired to send in reinforcements, since the flayers have 5 apr (or so) and Quickly swarm the slow moving warriors - even in the unmodded game. I would send in the swords, if I need some back up (never played Shaman).

ineth

Fighter/Mage is still the best class against mind flayers IMO, especially if you want to avoid the hassle of relying on summons too much.

• Let the F/M cast Mirror Image, to ensures that the Mind Flayers rarely land a hit. And when they occasionally do get a hit, that's OK because a F/M tends to have high INT. This way, dying from INT drain becomes unlikely.
• Have a priest party member cast Chaotic Commands on the F/M beforehand, to shrug off the psionics.
• Your F/M will likely have better APR and THAC0 than any summons you could muster - and after all, the best defense against Mind Flayers is to kill them quickly. (If your APR is less than 5, cast Improved Haste on the F/M before each battle, or Haste on the whole party.)

EDIT: Struck out incorrect info pointed out by jmerry below.

jmerry

ineth wrote: »

• Let the F/M cast Mirror Image, to ensures that the Mind Flayers rarely land a hit. And when they occasionally do get a hit, that's OK because a F/M tends to have high INT. This way, dying from INT drain becomes unlikely.

This does not work. Mirror Image does not protect against mind flayer intelligence drain, at all. If they hit a mirror image, they'll take out that image instead of doing 1d2 damage ... and they'll drain the real mage for 5 points of intelligence. I tested this just now - create a new cleric/mage in ToB, buff with CC and MI, create a mind flayer to attack, die in five hits. Why five instead of four? Because the character had pretty good AC, and the mind flayer missed a lot. The first hit's drain wore off before the end.
If you want a level 2 illusion spell to help your mages defend themselves, go with Blur. AC and saves do help reliably.

Sure, having a mage around to caste haste on everybody and/or improved haste on the best warriors is nice. Killing the illithids quickly is important, after all. But it's far less important than having a priest or two around to shore up your defenses, and combining roles to have a fighter/mage specifically doesn't get you any meaningful synergy.

In my opinion, the best arcane class to aid a party against illithids? A bard. If you get to epic levels, Enhanced Bard Song grants immunity to stun, plus AC, damage, and THAC0. Lesser songs are also pretty good, with either a luck bonus for the blade and vanilla bard (luck boosts saves, chance to hit, and weapon damage) or direct bonuses to those combat stats for the skald. And you can still spare a few spell slots for haste.

ineth

Damn, so all this time my F/M avoided INT drain death because of his good AC, not his Mirror Images?
Seems like you can never learn all the quirks of this game...

You're right - in that case, any high-APR, high-damage, pre-buffed warriors rushing in would do, regardless of their class.

Btw, how much would the Berserker's innate Rage ability help? Does it block all psionics effects, or is Chaotic Commands still needed?

jmerry

Yes, berserker Enrage protects against all psionic status effects. As does Barbarian Rage. Charm, maze, sleep, and stun.

If you don't have one of those going for you, you need unbeatable spell saves. Save on -3 to protect from everything, or on 1 if you only care about the mind blasts.

BardsSuck_

StummvonBordwehr wrote: »

There is a mod that makes the skeletons immune to int drain, but its not so in the main game as jmerry says.

I have also found the skeletons squishy against umber hulks. So one should send in a cloud kill before unloading the skeletons, and be prepaired to send in reinforcements, since the flayers have 5 apr (or so) and Quickly swarm the slow moving warriors - even in the unmodded game. I would send in the swords, if I need some back up (never played Shaman).

Skellies are imo best summon in game since you have them so early, ive literaly solo´d the game with my Thief/cleric extremely evil gnome on scs with them, (core rules), they simply work.

StummvonBordwehr

I agree. Skeletons are awesome. Perhaps the best given the early access and scaling.

They are awesome - just not so much against umber hulks and mind flayers in tandem.

Khyron

Well.. Thieves of course. Most fights with illithid can be planned for. Traps, traps, traps.. squishy sods explode.

Or as stated by BardsSuck, Thief/Clerics.. skeletons -and- traps. Very easy that way.

If you just try to faceroll them like most other content, letting your melees tangle you'll have casualties.. poor Minsc. His low intelligence is the one thing that makes me overlook him entirely in BG2. Huge weakness.

Christian79

jmerry wrote: »

ineth wrote: »

• Let the F/M cast Mirror Image, to ensures that the Mind Flayers rarely land a hit. And when they occasionally do get a hit, that's OK because a F/M tends to have high INT. This way, dying from INT drain becomes unlikely.

This does not work. Mirror Image does not protect against mind flayer intelligence drain, at all. If they hit a mirror image, they'll take out that image instead of doing 1d2 damage ... and they'll drain the real mage for 5 points of intelligence. I tested this just now - create a new cleric/mage in ToB, buff with CC and MI, create a mind flayer to attack, die in five hits. Why five instead of four? Because the character had pretty good AC, and the mind flayer missed a lot. The first hit's drain wore off before the end.
If you want a level 2 illusion spell to help your mages defend themselves, go with Blur. AC and saves do help reliably.

Mirror image basically protects against almost no on-hit effect apart from elemental damage. Planetar dispel and vorpal hit does not care, if it hits you or your mirror image. Answerer will penalize your AC even if it only hits your mirror image, same goes for your THACO and Soul Reaver. Mirror Image only protects against direct and elemental damage. I haven´t tested it but I would expect you can even get poisoned when an image gets hit.

jmerry

Christian79 wrote: »

I haven´t tested it but I would expect you can even get poisoned when an image gets hit.

The interaction of poison and Mirror Image is really weird.
Instant poison always ignores mirror images; if you swing with the Wyvern's Tail morning star against a mage with mirror images up, you'll deal that poison even if you aren't dealing physical damage.
Poison over time, however, is blocked by mirror images even if you hit the real mage with the physical damage. It's also blocked by Stoneskin, unlike instant damage of any element.

Tested using fresh ToB characters; a Dragon Disciple on the defense, a druid or cleric with the Dagger of Venom or Wyvern's Tail on the attack.

Christian79

jmerry wrote: »

Poison over time, however, is blocked by mirror images even if you hit the real mage with the physical damage. It's also blocked by Stoneskin, unlike instant damage of any element.

This explains why poisoned throwing daggers basically had zero success in poisoning mages in my games (granted, most of the time they had Protection from normal missiles up).