Dual & Multi Class
Wojna12
Member Posts: 6
Hey Guys,
I have never played any BG or DnD before and have some questions on Dual/Multi Class. I have spent at least 12hrs reading on forums (Beamdog, Reddit, Steam) and watched tons of BG videos on YT but find some stuff confusing. I am looking to do either multi or dual for F/M. Can you provide clarity on:
I have never played any BG or DnD before and have some questions on Dual/Multi Class. I have spent at least 12hrs reading on forums (Beamdog, Reddit, Steam) and watched tons of BG videos on YT but find some stuff confusing. I am looking to do either multi or dual for F/M. Can you provide clarity on:
- Dual class can only be human on gnome?
- Dual class first type can pick a 'kit' such as berserker, but the 2nd can only me mage without the specific kits (ie conjuuring, illusionist etc)?
- Gnome dual class is the only exception to the above restriction as he always goes to illusionist?
- For dual class F/M sicne mage says cannot wear armor does that superceede the Fighter ability to wear armor? Overall the cannot overwrites the can restrictions?
- Dualclass can get grandmastery in the fighter proficiency but multiclass cannot get more than 2* in any proficiency?
- Proficiency is only for weapons and therefore doesnt impact mages bur rather fighters, etc?
- Multiclass can have ktis for both the first and second type, ie berserker conjuring?
Overall, if I plan to do a saga BGEE, SOD, BG2 and maybe ToB with character import and no xp cap tweak, by where in BGEE, SOD, BG2 would each dual class change 7,9,13 start and finish (approiximately) assuming BG2 scroll learn trick? As in 13 would occur in BG2 right at start, then dual class finish nearly at start due to scroll or perhaps need to wait 40% of BG2 to finish dual class transition.
My plan was to dual class at the very very end of SOD or very start of BG2 at lvl13 go get SOD finish XP and BG2 scroll trick to near immediately start/finish the transition. Is that feasible?
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- Only humans can dual class. They need at least 15 in their original class's key stat or stats, and at least 17 in their new class's key stat or stats. Temporary stat bonuses such as potions and equipment bonuses do not apply toward these requirements.
- When dual-classing, you can have a kit only for your original class. Your new class will be unkitted.
- Only non-humans can multiclass. Multiclass combinations are determined at character creation, and are all unkitted except for gnome illusionist/X combinations.
- Multiclass and dual-class combinations generally allow items to be equipped according to whichever class is more permissive. Fighter/mages can equip all base weapon and armor types, for example. The exceptions here? Cleric and druid weapon restrictions are according to their ethos, and those restrictions carry over to any multiclass or dual-class combination. Kits that ban certain items, such as a kensai's prohibition against armor and ranged weapons, have those restrictions carry over to any dual-class combinations.
- Regarding the mage's armor restrictions specifically, multiclass and dual-class mages can't cast their arcane spells when wearing body armor, with the exception of specific types of armor (elven chain) that are specifically built for it and note the exception in their description. While your fighter/mage can put on full plate, it usually isn't a good idea.
- Weapon proficiencies matter for everyone; there's a penalty to attack when using a weapon you're not proficient in. Higher proficiencies - two dots for specialization, three dots for mastery, and so on - and their bonuses are generally only for warriors.
- Grand mastery is only available for single-class fighters, the Archer ranger kit (bows only), and part-fighter dual-class combinations. Other warriors, including multiclass fighters, are limited to specialization.
On scroll XP, that's only useful in BG2(EE). BGEE offers 1% as much XP, a generally insignificant amount. If you have a lone level 13 fighter, supported by a thief to shoplift a few merchants' inventory (who will be out of the party for the actual scriing) ... there's enough scroll XP available as soon as you have access to Waukeen's Promenade to take that character up to fighter 13 -> mage 14 with zero downtime. Scribe and erase, repeatedly. Just make sure to end up with spells known, and to leave some of the rarer scrolls for any other mages you'll recruit.
A typical completionist run of BGEE will get a full party to something like 250K XP each. If you're dual-classing at level 7, that'll be a large swath of the later parts of that campaign consumed by your downtime. If you're dual-classing at level 9, that's basically at the beginning of SoD and most of that campaign will be consumed by your downtime. If you're dual-classing at level 13, that's a few quests into the SoA campaign, and the scribing trick means you'll have no downtime at all.
A few things to consider, don’t start with something fragile like mage. It usually makes more sense to start as a fighter than dual to something else. Multi-classes average their hit points, so a multi fighter mage will have very weak hit points. At higher levels that’s fine, but a low level F/M makes a lousy tank! Ditto for a fighter/thief.
Don’t over look dual or multi clerics! Seriously, between good hit points and buffing magic, they can be awesome!
Seriously, you might to start a single class something, learn the game a little then reassess.
On class choice ... if you're picking a fighter/mage because people say it's the most powerful, you'll be disappointed. Not because they're wrong, but because that's a terrible way to choose a character in these games. The arcane melee archetype is based on using spells to build a defense while attacking with your weapons. It's extremely tough in short bursts, and then the spells run out and you've spent some of your daily resources so you have fewer options for the next encounter.
More importantly, it's a specific play style that might not appeal to you. I've never gone with a fighter/mage of any sort in any of my many playthroughs; the closest I came was a run that I abandoned early in SoA when I lost interest. That's my feeling toward the class combination - it's just not my thing.
Appreciate your detailed response!
A few clarifications:
I like to min max a little but am looking for for a fun experience aswell as I expect these rules to be rather complex and the game is long with me not having time for multiple playthroughs. I will play on normal difficulty (not story mode)
The limits on who can take grand mastery are determined by various tables in the game files. It's a game rule, inherited from the tabletop game this is all based on, and possible to modify. Think of it as a class feature for fighters specifically, something other warriors don't get.
The part of the system that's "only for warriors"? Bonuses for specialization and beyond. Non-warriors can't specialize at all, with the exception of the Swashbuckler thief kit - and they don't even get the full benefit of specialization. Swashbucklers (and other non-warrior specialists if you ignore the rules and grant them proficiency anyway) get the +1 to hit and +2 damage but not the +1/2 attacks per round.
You won't reach fighter level 13 in SoD, unless you play with a significantly understrength party. The campaign has a 500K experience limit by default. My first run of it started at the beginning with a party at 64K XP each. Playing at "Core Rules" difficulty and keeping the party as full as possible, I hit that cap just before the climax.
If you start higher and play on a higher difficulty for the extra enemies (I wouldn't recommend that for an inexperienced player), you might get to something like 800K experience each. A level 13 fighter needs 1.25 million XP; that's just not happening unless you cut down your party's numbers so as to concentrate the rewards.
Exploiting scroll XP ... it's something you can do at pretty much any time in BG2EE. Shoplift the scrolls when you have the opportunity, store them until you need them. It's easiest when you're roaming Athkatla rather than delving a dungeon somewhere, of course. Given how much of the normal XP you get in that campaign comes from quest rewards, it's pretty likely that you'll reach level 13 at a convenient time for the "trick".
Likewise, other warriors (Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian) can specialize (2 pips only) while the non-warrior classes cannot. That is their benefit of being warriors. They sacrifice the mastery of a pure fighter to get their other class powers. But they CAN specialize.
Other classes can only take a single pip, so they gain proficiency but not specialization, in their weapons as appropriate.
And to further clarify, the warrior classes start with more weapon proficiencies and gain new proficiencies faster than other classes. So while a fighter or paladin starts with four proficiencies and gains one more every third level. A mage starts with ONE weapon proficiency, and gains one more every sixth level. Even better, the warrior Thaco (the number from which all attacks are calculated, lower is better) improves much more quickly than any other class.
The mage will always be weaker with the weapons they know than a fighter would be. They will have fewer proficiencies, can only take one per weapon, and their Thaco improves more slowly. So all told, the gap between the warrior classes is much smaller than the lesser weapons ability of the other classes. Even a priest (Cleric or Druid), which is the clear second best tanks, is much weaker with their weapons than a Ranger or Paladin.
If I'm planning on using a priest type character for ANY tanking, I will start them as a Fighter and dual to Cleric at 3rd, 6th or 7th level. Or multi-class them as a Fighter-Cleric or Fighter-Druid. Thus Jaheira, a Fighter-Druid, makes a passable second rate tank (she'll always be weak on hit points, but she can buff and dish out some decent hurt). While Aerie, a Mage-Cleric, is never a tank and shouldn't be anywhere close to melee (but dang can she cast spells!)
How do you define warrior - the list of classes, or list of kits?
When you say only Fighter can grand mastery do you mean Fighter the Class or Fighter the Kit? - I think that is what is confusing me here
Lastly when I hear F/M dual class is the first selection class Fighter kit Fighter and 2nd selection Mage, or first selection class Fighter kit any (sometiems explicitly says zerker) and and 2nd selection Mage?
Does that mean to dual class at 13 on normal difficulty with 6ppl party isnt feasible/leaves me with lots of 'down' time and better to simply dual at start of BG2EE anywhere between 9-13 rather than wait?
Also, earlier you said only human can dual class, but I could swear I read about people doing gnome berserker/illusionist dual class? Or did I misundertand and people do a multiclass gnome of fighter or zerker kit with illusionist kit mage?
For dual class is it Fighter kit(class & kit)/mage or berseker kit (fight class)/mage is recommended?
Having kits on both classes, such as a berserker -> illusionist? No, that's not possible. There's only one slot for a kit in the creature file. This is not something a mod can get around.
You can also have a kit assigned to a multiclass; generally, this kit only applies to one side. And of course, you can't choose a kitted multiclass in the standard rules unless it's a gnome illusionist/X. Also, again, only one kit. Having that hypothetical gnome illusionist/berserker would involve creating a new multiclass kit that combines the abilities of the illusionist and berserker.
Warriors: The warrior classes are fighters, paladins, and rangers. Also barbarians, when that's a separate class. Monks are in a grey area, viewed as warriors in some areas but not others. For this one ... they don't get weapon specialization.
Fighter kits (and unkitted fighters) can reach grand mastery in weapons unless otherwise specified in their kit descriptions. For example, berserkers can grandmaster melee weapons but not ranged ones; the inability to go beyond basic proficiency in ranged weapons is an explicit disadvantage of that kit.
Should you take a kit as the first half of your dual class? Well, that depends on the advantages and disadvantages of the kit. As you mentioned berserkers, I'll use that kit as an example: Rage is a powerful defensive ability, allowing you to shrug off a ton of debilitating effects while it's active. It also grants a modest offensive boost. It lasts ten rounds, and plays well with the arcane melee archetype's self-buffs - you just add this to the list of spells you're using, and cover another aspect of your defenses.
The first disadvantage there is tied to the rage ability; there's a five-round cooldown after your rage ends before you can use it again, and you take penalties to your combat power during that time. Try to end the fight before that happens.
The second disadvantage is the big one. If you want to build a fighter that specializes in the bow, they're not going to be a Berserker. But it's a disadvantage at the character-building stage; it restricts your options there, rather than penalizing you in gameplay. You don't get any fewer proficiency points to use, and if you were planning on investing them all in melee weapons and styles anyway, it's not a disadvantage at all.
The final disadvantage ... OK, you can't be Lawful. One third of the alignment table is off limits. A minor restriction in character-building, more flavor than anything else.
So, then, what does this look like if you're planning to dual-class to mage? You'll focus on one weapon proficiency as a fighter, probably taking it to grand master before you dual. You'll have two or three other proficiency points as a fighter, which will most likely go toward a style to supplement your chosen weapon. And then you become a mage, and you hardly get any more proficiency points to work with at all. Whatever weapon you chose, that's basically it. In this context, assuming you chose a melee weapon, the berserker kit is practically free power; a useful buff you can use on yourself at virtually no cost.
But the categories have no real bearing on anything, except for letting us refer broadly to "Warriors" and knowing that refers to several classes that have some similar characteristics (same hit dice, Thaco, saving throws).
The class provides most of the useful stuff on how the class works.
Then add kits to spice things up. Kits often tweak or change all sorts of class details. Like a Ranger-Archer can gain Mastery of a bow! Woohoo! But they can't wear heavy armor or get more than a single pip in melee weapons. Bummer.
Only humans can dual (in an un-modded game). Usually, for a F-M dual the fighter part is done first. I guess I would change my mind if it were called a M-F? But that really makes no sense! You'd end up with a gimped warrior with really lousy hit points!
As jmerry was getting at above, the mage is most often used from the rear ranks (mostly for crowd control and anti-magic). While a Berserker is truly a melee Warrior. Now no doubt, the mage will add some excellent buffing spells to the Berserker. Like Blur, Mirror Image, Stone Skin, Fire Shield, Tensor's Transformation. It would be possible to build a frightening killing machine! But your party will likely need other mages to fulfill the more traditional role too.
I think making your fighter a bow specialist (or even sling!) might be more conventional.
Obviously either can be made to work. But seriously I wouldn't go the melee mage route on a first play through. There's a number of pitfalls to watch out for, and given the number of questions you have about the basics I would strongly recommend something more traditional. A single class Fighter or Paladin from the start of BG1 would provide a good experience. And remember, you have a party. Any skills your character doesn't have you can recruit someone to help. That's sort of the essence of D&D, its a team sport.
Got it, thank you for the detailed explanation. I was looking to do a melee dual class, sounds like berserker would be a good choice. Excited to start
Appreciate the response. I always imagined playing a spellsword..... hence the dual class