Is Grand Mastery better than the saving throw bonuses of a Paladin?

ZeroxSP7

Title. What about versus the immunities/abilities of the Paladin kits? Or versus the Paladin exclusive items?

agentOO0

I'd probably rate a dwarf berserker higher than a cavalier, but they both are strong classes.

I'm defaulting to dwarf berserker and cavalier because those are probably considered the strongest fighter and paladin classes. Yes, there's the barb but he can't get grandmastery anyway, and there's the inquisitor, which is also super strong, but that's more based on their ability to deal with mages.

I'm pretty sure the dwarf berserker would get the better saving throws, plus berserker rage would make them immune to most non-damage spell effects that you would try to save against anyway, and they can get grandmastery.

Now the cavalier would get various other immunities that are very useful, especially immunity to poison, so it's also a good, strong class, and later (BG2) on they get low level cleric spells (except inquisitor), which can be very useful and increase tankiness. Plus there are some special paladin only weapons (again in BG2), most notably Carsomyr (2H sword) and The Purifier (bastard sword).

But there are numerous items to boost magic resistance and saving throws that fighters can use too. I'd just choose the class that appeals to you more and play it.

Note: Both berserkers and cavaliers have restrictions on use of ranged weapons, but those restrictions do not apply to throwing weapons, so you can still use throwing axes and throwing daggers if you want.

gorgonzola

GM gives +1/2apr, better thac0 and some more damage. Imho the few damage is not so relevant while the better Thac0 and apr are relevant if combined with added damage from STR and weapon or items bonuses. As pure damage dealer a Fighter with GM is better then a Paladin, if we talk about the usefulness for the party it depends on the party composition, in a physical damage oriented one an Inquisitor with his Dispel Magic and the sword that dispell on hit can be invaluable, an Undead Hunter can make the fights vs vampires and other undeads easier, but in a small party with a Cleric that will level up fast is redundant as the Cleric can enslave or make explode them and so on.
I usually run small parties, often all my toons can cast arcane spells and being few are over leveled, for me both pure Fighters and Paladins are weak party members that have to be baby sitted to survive (i never use maxed hp roll on level up so their hp pool is never huge, a fight where they are unlucky an get a couple of hits more then prevented often get them killed) while my FMs, FMTs, CMs, MTs and Bards most of the times end the battle without a single scratch, but for different play styles the situation can be completely different. I think that both a Fighter with GM, possibly DW, and a Pally can be great toons to play, but which is better depends on party composition and play style and also on the game settings, I usually play insane with Tactics Mod, playing vanilla or LoB or SCS requires different approaches i.e. if in vanilla up to insane having a high damage output is a strategy that works fine playing LoB you can not kill them so fast before they kill you and tanking and survivability are needed to survive.

atcDave

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the various Paladins, and usually choose one to be my party leader. Their high charisma also makes them good on point, to initiate dialogue including business. Paladins are also fairly easy to play, for what its worth. Ultimately though, it needs to be a role playing decision. The thing is, you can win this game with any class for the PC. And it will be most fun with a character you LIKE.
The "simple" factor is also a little misleading, since you will ultimately have characters of every sort to figure out how to run. The only real consideration then is forming the team you like. But again, choosing companions you like will mostly be a role playing decision. There is a nearly unlimited number of ways to mix and match party members.

BardsSuck_

Grandmastery is too good to pass away.

Balrog99

Cavalier or Undead Hunter instead of Berserker is worth it for the special abilities imho. Inquisitor can be handled by Keldorn if you want one. I find the lack of lay on hands and spellcasting to make a Charname Inquisitor kinda boring, but that's just me. They're fun too, just not as special. Hell, make a pally run with a Cavalier or Undead Hunter and bring along Keldorn, Mazzy and Anomen. You won't regret it!

atcDave

Yeah Balrog I completely agree. Paladins are generally a very strong choice, and easy to run FWIW. A single class fighter can be an excellent choice too, but I like the paladins.

BardsSuck_

A fighter with grandmastery will always destroy any paladin 1 vs 1. Its basic math.

Whatever paladin gets isnt worth losing grandmastery, and fighter can probably get those bonus through equipment.

If u want those priest spells so much go dual fighter priest S+++ class.

atcDave

It’s not about who will destroy what! Either character is completely viable. But even by your measure, a high level paladin who buffs with Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might *might* be more powerful than a higher level fighter with Grand Mastery. And there’s always the issue of scores and magic items. It’s never a simple math problem of who’s badder.
And ultimately it’s about playing the character that inspires you. For me, that’s more often the Paladin. That’s why it’s a role playing game, not a shooter. Play a part, be the character; you can win with a variety of different types!

ZeroxSP7

I’m kind of under the feeling that Fighters are better as archers while paladins and kits are better up front. I feel like you’d want someone who’s immune to stuff, got high ac, and good saving throws to be the prime target of attackers and spellcasters.

atcDave

No doubt, at any given level, a paladin is best equipped to bear the brunt. It is easily possible to design a fighter that can dish it out better. But combat is a balance of the two. It’s like arguing which hand is more important for clapping.

BardsSuck_

ZeroxSP7 wrote: »

I’m kind of under the feeling that Fighters are better as archers while paladins and kits are better up front. I feel like you’d want someone who’s immune to stuff, got high ac, and good saving throws to be the prime target of attackers and spellcasters.

Have you tried Anomen ? Hes exactly what you want, with GM and flail of ages ,defender of easthaven, all buffed , he literally sweeps zones alone, i even let 5 characters sitting somewhere, he can also use slings i guess.

Unless you fight some op mage, its beyond OP. S++++ npc

Meanwhile npcs like keldorn melt, i cannot frontline keldorn ever. Paladin is super lackluster in game. Hes basically a dispel bot.

jmerry

When you first get him, Anomen is level 8 as a cleric, with no points in flail or dual-wielding. He'll need to reach at least level 28 (4.5 million XP) to wield that Flail of Ages as a grand master. And if you want him to dual-wield that flail instead of using a shield, you'll need to either reach level 36 (6.3 million XP) and use all his proficiency points, or eat some nasty penalties to THAC0 when you're already significantly worse off than a full warrior.
Just have him use maces, or maybe hammers, with a shield. Don't make things harder on yourself by working against the early levels of the character's build.

Plus, Anomen doesn't get warrior HLAs. No Hardiness, no late-game tanking. Sure, you could give him DoE and cast Armor of Faith for 45% melee damage resistance. That's nothing. A warrior like Keldorn can nearly match that with Hardiness alone. When you combine divine spells and warrior abilities and equipment ... someone like Minsc or Valygar can wield DoE and cast Armor of Faith and cast Hardiness all at once for up to 85% damage resistance.

Which is not to say that Anomen's bad. Warrior priests have a lot going for them, no matter how you build them. And I've used Anomen in both of my last two full runs.

ZeroxSP7

If we’re bringing in party comp then, for BG2 I’d like to take…

1. Jaheira. For Druid spells and to be on the front.
2. Imoen as my main mage and thief.
3. Anomen. For cleric spells and to be on the front. Considering Aerie as a replacement, but she’ll end up at the back.
4. Mazzy. For being a good archer, but also flexibility. I’d like to spend the rest of her points on a blunt weapon and put her up front if needed. Otherwise, she’s mainly going to be in the back.
5. Not sure who to put here. I’d like a Skald but there’s no Skald npc’s. And I don’t want to be one. Maybe take Aerie AND Anomen? Idk.

I know a lot of people would say take Keldorn. Which, ok. Duh right? Take him. But his ac will be crap compared to Anomen’s. Anomen will have the dex gloves. He’s my ultimate undead/lich destroyer. Also I can’t bear to take Keldorn from his family. I’m a good guy :’(

atcDave

Keldorn is viable all the way through. I also dislike the role playing aspect of dragging him along, but seriously it’s usually only a couple months until he can retire to his family.

atcDave

BTW, is anyone else here retired? It is a big deal, especially if you've worked a long and satisfying career. Walking away is not an easy decision, it involves a lot of redefining oneself. Keldorn is at a difficult crossroads. He certainly wants two different things, and has a struggle to decide who he's going to be in the future. I loved my last year of work, and it utterly flew by. But then I knew quite a ways out when that last day was going to be. Keldorn is only just now reaching that decision. Trust me, you do him a favor by letting him go on a last mission that will be epic (and only last a couple months). Something that will let him step down with pride and satisfaction.

Now obviously, Air Traffic Control has a lower mortality rate than battling for a dead God's throne of power (!). But I can assure him, every single time, that I will get him through. Just, never mind those reloads...

BardsSuck_

jmerry wrote: »

When you first get him, Anomen is level 8 as a cleric, with no points in flail or dual-wielding. He'll need to reach at least level 28 (4.5 million XP) to wield that Flail of Ages as a grand master. And if you want him to dual-wield that flail instead of using a shield, you'll need to either reach level 36 (6.3 million XP) and use all his proficiency points, or eat some nasty penalties to THAC0 when you're already significantly worse off than a full warrior.
Just have him use maces, or maybe hammers, with a shield. Don't make things harder on yourself by working against the early levels of the character's build.

Plus, Anomen doesn't get warrior HLAs. No Hardiness, no late-game tanking. Sure, you could give him DoE and cast Armor of Faith for 45% melee damage resistance. That's nothing. A warrior like Keldorn can nearly match that with Hardiness alone. When you combine divine spells and warrior abilities and equipment ... someone like Minsc or Valygar can wield DoE and cast Armor of Faith and cast Hardiness all at once for up to 85% damage resistance.

Which is not to say that Anomen's bad. Warrior priests have a lot going for them, no matter how you build them. And I've used Anomen in both of my last two full runs.

Well i have SCS i dual anomen fighter to priest, i can put points where i want, when i get him hes lv 1. I will get GM in chapter 2 even i believe, i havent played in a while. He scales extremely well, he has so much defensive spells and immunities its insane. I give him Dfender easthaven and armor of faith. Its not 100% like Jaheira token but its damn good, And i dont need to wait until suldanesselar to get HLA like hardiness.

GM in flail of ages plus improved haste its 10 attacks per round, its insane, it kills everything, you just cant buff a paladin like that. Plus anomen has shield of archon, impervious sanctity of mind, entropy shield, immunities to all elements almost, its too good.

atcDave wrote: »

BTW, is anyone else here retired? It is a big deal, especially if you've worked a long and satisfying career. Walking away is not an easy decision, it involves a lot of redefining oneself. Keldorn is at a difficult crossroads. He certainly wants two different things, and has a struggle to decide who he's going to be in the future. I loved my last year of work, and it utterly flew by. But then I knew quite a ways out when that last day was going to be. Keldorn is only just now reaching that decision. Trust me, you do him a favor by letting him go on a last mission that will be epic (and only last a couple months). Something that will let him step down with pride and satisfaction.

Now obviously, Air Traffic Control has a lower mortality rate than battling for a dead God's throne of power (!). But I can assure him, every single time, that I will get him through. Just, never mind those reloads...

Keldorn is giga chad, hes worth taking just for his lines, one of the coolest paladins ive ever seen written in a videogame. I enjoy Carsomyr on him, what do you guys equip kaledorn with ? I feel he melts too fast.

atcDave

I don’t put him on point is the main thing. A tank who can take the hits should be #1. Give that character the Boots of Speed and they’ll draw most of the attention. Give Keldorn the next best armor and the Gauntlets of Dexterity to improve his survivability. Obviously he gets Carsomyr and the best strength device you have (at least the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength) and let him rock!

morpheus562

Carsomyr is meh. It doesn't hit nor dispel enemies with pmfw or absolute immunity and setting MR isn't great. He is best paired with foebane for self healing and doe offhand for increased damage immunity.

DinoDin

I've found that adding a blunt weapon and shield to paladin builds can give them solid flexibility, whether it's Keldorn or a protagonist. 2H sword and a ranged weapon are a must of course. And then likely either warhammer or flail, since good aligned parties rarely have someone taking both of those. This gives him a slightly tankier setup for when you need it and a setup for slash resistance. For protagonist paladins, it's a good weapon set to switch to if you're doing some in-combat casting, like a Hold Person, for a tad more tankiness.

Obviously quarterstaff could have worked here too and synergizes with 2H weapon style. But I think for paladins in SoA and ToB, a bit more tankiness is worth the tradeoff for less damage or lower enchantment.