Aerie or Nalia as my backup mage?
DeeKayNL
Member Posts: 110
Hello everyone,
At the moment a just started a new run of BG2ee and TOB. I have SCS installed. I am planning my first thief-like charname.
My party would be like:
Charname: Berserker dual to thief.
Anomen
Jaheira
Neera
The 6th slot is for npcs to rotate for their quests.
I need a backup mage for the party buffs.
Should i pick Nalia or Aerie? Nalia is more like a pure mage for backup en quicker levels. Aerie has slower leveling but also cleric spells. I know i already have Anomen and Jaheira for clerical duties. But i am thinking they might need the spell slots for taking spells.
What would you recommend and why?
At the moment a just started a new run of BG2ee and TOB. I have SCS installed. I am planning my first thief-like charname.
My party would be like:
Charname: Berserker dual to thief.
Anomen
Jaheira
Neera
The 6th slot is for npcs to rotate for their quests.
I need a backup mage for the party buffs.
Should i pick Nalia or Aerie? Nalia is more like a pure mage for backup en quicker levels. Aerie has slower leveling but also cleric spells. I know i already have Anomen and Jaheira for clerical duties. But i am thinking they might need the spell slots for taking spells.
What would you recommend and why?
0
Comments
Don't need 2 full mages, likelyhood you'll be missing some important spells for either one for some time.
Party buffs with 15 or 20 rounds doesn't matter much.. combining cleric and mage buffs is great.. the list goes on
Also it will allow Anomen to have self buffs instead of party buffs, making him into a melee monster.. combining armor of faith and Defender of Easthaven will give him nearly 50% resistance to physical damage.. add FoA in main hand, DUHM and Shield of Archons and he's nearly impossible to kill.. you don't want him recasting party buffs and loitering around
And Jaheira can be on anti-mage/caster duty and off-tank or sling dps.
That told I just did a run with Neera and both Aerie and Nalia and having to choose only one I would keep Nalia and drop Aerie.
Why? The answer is in my way to play wild mages, I am really strict about them and the first one is to never reload if a bad surge happens, and them will happen even if you don't abuse of dweomers, thing that I like to do, so I never use a wild mage to buff the party and as soon as possible always use his PI clone instead of him, if a cow falls from the sky and kills the clone is not a big deal that way I never had to reload or to suffer much for bad surges even if I used a lot of dweomers.
Using this approach the wild mage is basically just a super powerful arcane bomber, able to drop on the enemy spells of higher level then his actual level allows to normally cast and later someone that can spam every spell without having to memorize it under a sort of permanent improved alacrity as long as his first level spells, all dweomers, are depleted or to spam wish to rest all day long without having to waste precious lev 9 slots for the spell, but you need a mage that covers all the party buffing and other tasks where using the wild mage is risky and Nalia is simply better at it as she will have almost double the xp of Aerie. In my run Nalia was the one wearing the RoV most of the time, later in some battles Nalia used the ROV to call summons and buff the party under improved alacrity then gave it to Neera so her PI could unleash all her attacking dwehomers and then under improved alacrity half spell book.
I did not pay the cowed wizards because looting from them is a good way to get high level spells, like ADHW, early in the game so Neera can learn them, to be able to cast if many times in a battle way before going to the Underdark is a luxury that few parties can afford... Obviously it was risky until Neera was able to cast PI, so it was used only in very few selected battles.
With my choice of never reloading with a wild mage his role will be somehow limited, anyway keep all the good loot stored in some container and convert it in cash only when you need cash to buy something, I suppose that you know why...
If you don't mind to reload on bad surges probably Aerie is better if you like versatility, 2 full mages are too much in most of the parties specially as you will be a thief so you don't need much her ability to deal with traps and locks (but then you need to take a thief until you change class).
You will be better prepared for a wider set of combat challenges, imo. Yes, the Robe of Vecna on Aerie is super overpowered. But until you get increased alacrity you are still limited to one spell cast per round, meaning Aerie's enormous spell book won't provide the high volume in a short span kind of activity you need to help in the most dangerous fights. Whereas Nalia's higher mage spells and potentially powerful bowshots will.
Cleric/Mage gives you a lengthy spell repertoire that can cut down on the need to rest, but it doesn't give you this huge punch potential. Not without sacrificing a bunch of spell slots on buffing spells anyways.
I say this from years now of trying no-reload runs. But the key for beating the dangerous combats without cheesing is to have a kind of "nuke it from orbit" strategy in the first two rounds. That is to say, an ability to unload multiple high level spells from multiple casters AND rain down a hail of attacks from good weapons. So, if your goal is to limit your deaths or reloads, that is what I suggest.
My original plan was to have both jaheira and anomen on the frontline.
Also have the Icewind Dale spells installed.
Anomen wil be focussing on self buffs and Jaheira mostly self buffs and insects, maybe some summons.
I currently have Nalia in my party , but was thinking if I am missing someone for chaotic commands. If Anomen en Jaheira have enough spell slots to make this happen.
I have no problem reloading if something goes wrong. In a previous run i found out much too late al my gold was gone 😅
My plan was to use Neera pure as a nuker. I wanted Nalia of Aerie for partybuffs.
At this moment i still have Nalia in my party and still contemplating if I need more chaotic commands or if my current frontline should have enough.
I completely agree on Nalia being a better mage, Aerie needs 6M xp to cast Improved Alacrity and even at the beginning of SoA Nalia will get levels and spell levels earlier.
There are many ways to be effective in the game so there are no wrong tactics or party compositions, but the right tactics and party for your own style, so the opinions can be different but none of them necessarily wrong. This is one of the reasons why this game is so good.
If you don't use Neera to buff the party and value Improved Haste Nalia will have more of them, with 2 divine casters in the party I don't think you will run short of commands, but obviously both the issues depend on how often you rest, there are players that rest often, others that do it only when most of the party is fatigued and completely out of spells.
Be aware that from the moment you go to WK and go enough deep in it Neera can learn Wish so she can wish for rest all day long, you don't have to worry any more of spell slots or charges of x charges/day items.
Nalia will probably be the 5th spot because I really like IH
I plan on filling the 6th spot after spellhold which initial will be imoen.
Still pondering if this part has too many arcane casters in the end. But really dont know who could fill my 6th spot in late SOA and TOB. I dont want to take some npcs because I just had them in previous parties:
Haer'dalis
Korgan
Jan Janssen
Viconia
I was thinking of Rasaad but I read a lot of bad things about him. Could take TOB npc, Mazzy as Archer or someone completely different?
Whereas Nalia is just right there, competing with nobody else in the party for the awesome shortbows available in BG2, and with zero need to sacrifice many of her spell slots to increase her bow effectiveness. It's true that her attacks won't be effective against opponents of certain protections but it's a pretty small number in my experience, and we're talking mostly late SoA and ToB here where you have other party options to compensate. OP already has two characters that might want sling as a back up weapon anyways, I don't think it's wise to add a third here. And I think it's more "fun" to take someone who will take advantage of bow and arrow drops, something his original party didn't list.
Aerie can be a very powerful member of the party, but she's something of a high-maintenance character to fulfill that role. Meaning you have to apply some specific buffs, some of which are not long lasting. Whereas Nalia and her bow is much more low maintenance, requiring little buffing while still being able to carry her weight in combat aside from just her spellbook. My attitude would be different if OP was already announcing a bow using protagonist or a desire to have Mazzy in the party.
That told I think that both Nalia and Imoen in the same party is a bad idea, one is almost the clone of the other, they are weak on physical attacks lacking of APR and Thac0 and as we have only 1 RoV and 1 AoP there is no place for 2 main mages, further more if also Neera is in the party. Nalia or Imoen and Neera in the same party is different as a wild mage offers some alternatives that a regular one can not give. If you want to take Imoen for RP reasons ok, but it is not an ideal solution.
It could be better if you choose Aerie at the beginning as Neera and Aerie can cover the arcane department until Imoen is back and gain enough levels to be the main mage, then Aerie can be a super versatile toon, able to mix her arcane and divine magic in sequencers, to buff both for good ranged and mlee damage, while tanking better then your strongest tank until her defensive spells last and being also a decent arcane and divine backup. With her I see how Imoen can work for your party.
Jan is a fantastic character, with his personal items and the others available in the game is almost as good as a single class thief and he is also a specialist mage, but your charname will be a thief, 2 thieves are overkilling in the situations where thieves rule, basically backstabbing most of the dungeon, and are a waste where thieves does not work, so I would say no.
Korgan is probably the best physical damage dealer, IMHO even better then mr.ToB as when you can recruit Sarevok the dwarf will have more xp and levels, surely Sarevok with the vorpal halbert, the deathbringer assault and GWW is OP, but he reaches that level only near the end of the game, I prefer someone that is more linear in his effectiveness.
Haer Dalis is, or better was, super strong, sadly EE has hugely nerfed the bards. But if you use the mod from Tresset's Choice Tweaks to give to his song a larger area of effect then the ridiculously small EE one and you cheat in the Bard Hat from SoD is still more then viable in EE.
Viconia is a cleric that has to offer only her MR on top of it, too squishy to send mlee in most situations while Aerie has arcane protections and Anomen has enough HP to survive and fighter APR so I would say no if not for RP or romance reasons, Jaheira and Anomen can cover the divine compartment on their own.
So I would say Korgan if you want more physical punch, Haer Dalis if you at least use the Tresset's change to the song AoE and you want to boost all the party (the mislead clone can no more sing, but the simulacrum one from the helm still can and Neera + Wish = the helm charged every main battle if you choose so
Rasaad is quite difficult to use effectively in BG1 but does start to truly shine in BG2. If used well, he can become one of your best non-arcane caster companions. My biggest issue with him personally is just the fun factor. It's fun to level up and get new abilities. It's also fun to get new gear and see that improve your character. And on this latter category Rasaad suffers. He's limited in the gear he can use. He doesn't actually need it, but it does mean that he'll lack some of the coolness factor that your other companions have.
An easy to suggest alternative is of course Keldorn. Pairs very well with Anomen. Has a kit that dominates in SoA. No one else in your party is really competing for the same gear as him. He can take on a similar role to Rasaad as a frontline secondary tank and mage killer. Minsc or Valygar could work in your party as well. I don't know what role your fighter/thief protagonist is taking on, but if you're skipping stealth, Valygar can help there. Minsc, similar to Keldorn can do well with 2H swords. Of all these choices though, Keldorn would be the most power-game friendly choice, I'd say.
What Nalia can do with the short bow can not compare at all, Mazzy ok, she can compare, she is a little machine gun with Fighter Thac0, but buffing Aerie for physical damage is one of the best uses you can have of her, she will give you 50 dmg/round ranged, having the time to cast in the same round, and 100 dmg/round mlee and spending some arcane spells she will do it while tanking like a boss. My end game Aerie has something like 180 hp when buffed and I don't use maximum hp gain on leveling up, other way she would have even more. And her arcane protection spells when tanking will turn into more health for the other mlee attackers if you know how to position them and to draw the attention of the enemy on who you want and in less spells used to heal the party after the battle.
Both offensively and defensively she gains more then what she spends when she buffs herself.
I have already agreed that the arrows, not the short bow in itself, are really useful, but maybe charname can use a short bow or maybe Haer Dalis if the OP take him after underdark and yes Nalia needs way less maintenance as physical damage dealer (but needs improved haste to double the output, while Aerie does it with regular haste having a single APR).
The reason to prefer Nalia is, not her using a bow, but her being basically a single class mage, she will get more arcane spells and she will get higher level spells earlier topping at 5 lev.9 ones while Aerie will be stuck at 2.
As the starting front line of this party is Anomen and Jaheira + Charname that we don't know which weapons will focus on there is the risk that a lot of very good weapons can not be used unless someone that can do it is recruited.
Yeah I think our different perspectives here can probably be explained by how much you're emphasizing the late game. I think sacrificing a fourth level spell slot for a multiclass character is a big investment in early SoA and even midway through it, depending on how much you do, for just one example. Especially just for a buff that generally is only going to last for a single combat.
That spell could be used for summon undead for example, which can last through multiple combats, and relying on summons tends to be an overpowered tactic in the saga as well. It's especially strong if you're trying to avoid death, as meatshield summons give you time to react to a danger you might not have anticipated. Not saying that's the optimal strategy for this party, but just an example of the tradeoff.
My issue with talking about companion power and tying that to their performance in ToB is that you have access to so much loot and a free resting spot by then, that really the game's difficulty comes down to simply how much you're willing to use the pocket plane to rest before combats or to use some of the gear you find. As well as what order you're completing the difficult stages. It's why I tend to de-emphasize player character strength based on that segment of the game. I typically find it to be a somewhat easier part of the saga, even if the combats are more complex.
For me, the ease-of-use of Nalia in early SoA and the fact that she's not competing with Anomen or Jaheira for much gear is what pushes her over the top for this particular party composition. Again, this is all a matter of opinion. Resources tend to be limited at the start of BG2, depending on whether you're willing to cheese or meta game a bunch. And I tend to try and avoid that when I'm playing. The fact that I can essentially have a single class mage with the Tuigan bow at the start of SoA strikes me as a stronger choice than someone with a sling, relying on higher spell slots to match that bow is what explains my suggestion. And obviously the higher level mage spells are key too, since arcane magic is not just dominant in BG2, but almost necessary for the wizard duels, especially without Keldorn.
Seeing as questions arise on how I planned my party weapons wise I will type it out.
Charname (beserker (9) > thief ) will be using daggers and short swords. Not the optimal choice but wanted some other prof than normal. I should mention I have Rogue Rebalancing installed and want to eiled the short swords coming from the chosen of cyric. Thief wil be focussing on melee fighting , backstabs. Skills order: trap finding, open locks, detect invisibility, stealth.
Anomen wil be focussing on flails. Using FoA and Defender of Easthaven or shield.
Jaheira wil be focussing on clubs and scimitars.
Neera, well staff and sling or dart. Mainly just arcane stuff.
Nalia would be shortbow or crossbow.
I agree with you that I dont want Imoen and Nalia in this party, I wanted to only take Imoen to help her in that place and keep Nalia. Eventually someone else will take imoens place.
I really agree that Korgan, Haer'dalis and Jan are great npc's but I have taken them in my party so many times I would like to take someone less popular but still fitting with my party.
My thought proces in the npc's:
Valygar: seems strong not sure if he is in the same role as Charname.
Minsc: Weaker Valygar
Keldorn: seems great , not sure if he can survive frontline. Especially late game.
Mazzy: seems great as ranged, not sure if she takes away bow from Nalia and still is good late game
Cernd: too much clerical power already in party
This means that my party will reach the level a full party will reach end SoA way earlier and also later in ToB key NPCs will have much higher levels, Mi Aerie does not have to wait for the end of ToB to reach global 6M xp that enable her to cast lev 9 spells, My Haer Dalis will sing the enchanted song earlier and on and over.
And as I told I make extensive use of Wish to rest, I go to WK as early as I can in SoA just to get the scroll, in ToB I never need to go to the Pocket Plane to rest.
Early SoA the resources are limited, you are right, but I also actively use my thief to steal, with my own rules that are not stacking more then one thieving potion of the same kind and don't steal the same item more then once from a fence, but selling my loot to a regular merchant, steal it and then selling it a second time to a fence is fine for me and I do it for every valuable loot I get, stealing it back from the fence if I want to keep it, so very early SoA my party has a full set of charged wands, I don't need to waste spell slots on meat shield summons, and has all the key items they need, even the expensive ones that are sold by merchants that you can not steal from.
This inevitably changes my perspective on the NPCs and their value in the party and I apologize as I was not clear about it before, for me Aerie is often a key in some battles because she can buff to go to the frontline as my fighters are waiting idle, temporarily removed from the party, at the start of each area as for them getting some more HP and some better Thac0 is not so game changing as having a mage reaching way earlier high level spells or a multi being almost as good in both classes as a single class toon.
I still think that Aerie has a lot of potential even if the party xp is managed in a more traditional way, i.e. in the troll form from the Cloak of the Sewers and with minor buffs like DUHM, Mirror Images and eventually a Stoneskin she can change the tide of a battle and I never disagreed about how effective Nalia can be for a Party, Mages are OP, but I see the reasons behind your opinions and are sound ones, simply I just don't trust Nalia's effectiveness with a bow, I see her missing too often, but I really trust her global effectiveness as mages are OP.
Valygar is great if you use his Stalker perks and can use katanas, while Charname's priority seems not to be stealth. He can grant you scouting and stabs as Charname focuses on the other rogue skills, there is synergy. Even later I see synergy, to start a battle with 2 stabs is better then with only one, mages or potions can make them invisible later for further stabs, potentially you can have 4 or even more stabs in the first round of a battle. Or Charname with UaI and the SotM or the pally sword can dispel the protections and a split second after that Valygar can stab, I don't use SCS and usually play Tactics Mod so I am not sure that it is feasible in SCS.
Keldorn is great, but if you have the SCS component that lowers Inquisitor's dispel is less useful. Late game to have him survive you must use him and his long reach sword behind a tank.
With Mazzy I don't see the problem of her stealing the short bow from Nalia as I don't value much the output of Nalia as archer given her Thac0 and APR, Mazzy can be a machine gun with up to 10 APR, but the ranged weapons are less relevant in late SoA and in ToB, at the point you will get her you probably will find her less useful then she would have been earlier, she is still viable, but not optimal.
Minsc is not super strong, worst at mlee then Korgan, worst then Mazzy ranged, but can cover both the roles and equipped with the vorpal sword will have his own punch. Beware of psyonics with him, his low INT make him risky to use vs them. Not the power gamer choice, but for me Boo is always a plus.
I think I will choose Valygar as my 6th spot. Never had him through TOB, so now is a good chance. Maybe for xp reasons i will recruit him before spellhold and tell Imoen to take a hike. Just from a gameplay perspective.
Can I ask what kind of charname and npcs you rock when playing with a party of 3 or 4??
So I can have a F->M or FM Charname with Jan and Aerie, with Jan stabbing like crazy and her often buffing to go mlee while all can tank with arcane spells as in all arcane parties I use no armours.
If Charname is a FMT I don't need Jan, so there is a place for Haer Dalis (as mostly I play Tactics mod I mostly use the original game so he is pretty powerful). Sometimes I have Nalia or Imoen self modded to be F->M (keeping the same global value and making only the needed change to make the build legitimate), sometimes I have a Sorcerer, Charname Kelsey or Tashia.
Sometimes I allow in my small parties Anomen or even better Jaheira that has iron skins, the very useful insect spells and later the Elemental Prince that can be gated at the same time of a Planetar. As they are not arcane casters are regarded by me as squishy, my goal is to fight the boss battles of Tactics mod without receiving any damage, even if not always I succeed, so having people that rely only on AC for me is risky.
It is a situation between soloing, that I tried successfully but I find really boring, and full party, the over levelling of a solo, even if in a milder form, and the functionality of a full party, with thieving (i LOVE play thieves, stabbing whole dungeons and setting traps then luring into them the enemy), some mlee and ranged capability, that usually requires a certain amount of buffing, some divine power and a lot of arcane power.
So in example fighting a SoA dragon often does not imply doing him physical damages, my hasted 2-4 mages dance around him, while some expendable summon or an other protected mage distract him, as they lower his MR (if Aerie in in the party only 2 spells are needed), Doom and Malison him then Feeblemind him or turn him in a giant stone statue. The last is even better as then Stone to Flesh and a single MM give you double xp and all the loot.
Then frequently I reload and send each of my toons against the dragon solo, people like over levelled Aerie, Jan or Haer Dalis can defeat a SoA dragon solo quite easily.
For other early SoA battles vs large groups if my thief can not soften them with multiple stabs (I learn where every dark spot is in every dungeon so my thieves love to stab, turn a corner, hide the split second they are not is sight of the enemy and repeat) sometimes I set trap carpets or my mages stack some webs then all but one has polymorph into spider form ready while the last is under free action and casts spider spawn.
As I usually play with some mod quests that give some more xp and as I like to get stone statues of my most powerful enemies for Charname's collection by the end of SoA all my toons have little less then double the normal xp (as the quest xp is fixed for each toon, you don't get more of it running a small party). So as they all are casters and often all arcane casters I have plenty of magical power to deal with Tactics mod's hell or ToB with spells only, but I continue to fight many battles relying on physical attacks as my purpose is no more to beat the game, but to test the party versatility. My runs usually last forever as I like so much to reload many times and fight the same battle with the same party with completely different tactics.
I know that it is a pretty unusual play style, but it is the one I have more fun to play. Sometimes I run larger parties with my special levelling up strategy of having all the party receiving the quest xp, but only few key toons the one from the kills, but I find it overkilling, sometimes I play regular 5 or 6 people parties with a front line of fighter types, at now I have one of them near the end of SoD, but I find it more boring and less effective, maybe because I am so accustomed to rely on a lot of protection and offence from a heavy magic party while I am not so able to play plain fighters and to keep them safe.
Great choice! I think using Valygar can often change the one plays the game entirely, if you had not previously relied on stealth. One suggestion I'd make is to consider adding the quarterstaff proficiency and rely on that weapon for backstabs. While instead using dual-wielded katanas for non-backstab melee. This will also give him a blunt and slash option for immunities/resistances. He becomes a wonderfully diverse combatant in this way. Able to stab for potentially high damage, can partially tank, can switch to longbow in situations where you need that.
He's one of my favorite companions in good playthroughs.
I dont know the Tactics Mod but with SCS it feels the same that plain fighters cant compete at high levels and I have a hard time keeping them alive. But that probably is more because of the lack of my knowledge.
I used to have SCS installed with the bare minimum. Just some smarter AI and Calls for Help. Recently I am trying to have al the improved creatures and some tactical challenges. I also upped the difficulty from improved to tactical. It makes you play in a completely different way and adjusts your mindset. At this moment I am getting quite comfortable with SCS on Tactical except for a few encounters.
I still have problems with improved vampires, especially on lower levels, for example the one near the tomb where Korgan wants to go. Rakshasas are the bane of my existence. When trying to fight them in the Druidgrove I always need to reload often. Maybe I try to fight them to early.
I tried a solo game once as a FMT. Liked it in the beginning but became boring quite fast. Love to try a 3-4 party at even higher difficulty.
Great tip on the quarterstaff. Definitely gonna do that!!
Maybe this run will force me to use backstab more often. I usually forget to do those. I really should use it more. This is my first time as a thief main and must say I quite like it. With backstabbing maybe even more.
At the beginning was Tactics, every power gamer had that mod installed, then Improved Anvil and SCS came. Tactics is similar and different from SCS, similar as
I.e. the mindflyers see trough invisibility and teleport themselves near the less protected members of the party, you can no more hide a party member in a room and attack them with the ones that have chance of surviving.
The starting SoA dungeon is really interesting: there is very few ranged ammo so you can not kite, instead of the regular minor foe you find groups with some strong mlee fighters and sometimes wolves that chase you once they see you and 1 or 2 mages that use protections and are quite effective in their casting. One of those groups also spawns every time you try to rest, so having the party at low health and resting to regain hp and spells means almost sure death.
Then you have to fight vs Ilich and his durgars, but they are tough, they patrol the library in groups of 2 or 3, one is a monk with quivering palm and an other a lev 19 cleric that gates in a fallen deva,
The final SoA battle is also very interesting, instead of the usual 4 demons Irenicus splits himself in 5, one part is a dragon with attack that sucks levels vampire like, an other is a super mordy sword. There are also strong helpers and some of the most OP items the party has are temporarily removed, you can choose if to drop them to the ground before triggering the last tear, this way you can retrieve them, but the enemies are further boosted, or retrieve them after the first battle. First battle as Jon does not die, you have to fight him twice more. I post some YT video so you get the idea. I feel that the starting dungeon is the harder as the party lacks of levels and equipment there, to go trough it on insane with my less then 90k xp sorcerer was a nightmare even if I managed to kill everything without using the wands of level 2 so I could have them charged later.
Here is a video of the battle in hell so you get better an idea:
SCS was born to avoid all the cheating the enemies do in Tactics, but what I don't like is that somehow changes the magic system changing the behaviour of some spells, I don't want to go trough the hassle of learning again the magic system and then get confused when I run a more relaxing vanilla run, thing that I do when I want to focus more on RP and a more relaxed attitude after a hard powergamer run, so I also choose to don't play it and stick to Tactics. But as at now it has replaced Tactics as standard powergaming mode I suppose that it is really good.
FMT rooks and I don't get how you found it boring, being extremely versatile he can use very different tactics, I believe that willing to experiment instead of sticking with the proven strategies that work for ourselves it is a long way before a FMT can become boring. But anyone has his own tastes and what is true for me can be completely false for you...
If you want to try a small party I suggest you to pick a Charname that can solo at the beginning and take the companions at higher level, if I am not wrong the thresholds are 0.5, 1, 1.5, and 2M xp and be aware that if at the beginning they are over levelled so very strong the more you reach the end of the saga the more a regular 6 people party would anyway have reached high levels, with the advantage of being 6, so the small party becomes less powerful, you had HLA and high level spells way before them, but now also they have plenty of them.
At the beginning the best staves to stab are the Staff of Ryn +4 and if you want granted very high damage the Staff of Sriking with that +9 dmg that gets multiplied stabbing, but it has charges so use it only when really matters.
Then when you get the Staff of the Ram you will have the increased damage without expending charges.
Once you get the SotM and UAI it is also super useful, it can not stab, but it can make your B->T invisible after the stab so he can run away, hide and repeat.
Staves are my preferred stabbing weapons, still stabbing with Celestial Fury when also the stunning effect kicks in is something great. You have 2 stabbers so can choose which weapon to use or use both in the same battle...
Stabbing is a form of art in itself if you master it, in ToB becomes less relevant, but is still viable in some situations.
The more you try the more you will have fun, at least I have it when my thieves almost clear whole dungeons alone. Stealth is the skill that i focus early with my thieves for that reason, but you will have Valygar so it can not be your Charname's priority.
I bet that you will have fun!
Maybe I said it wrong. I do like the FMT class very much! My most played is the F->M. What i meant was that at some point you get so powerful that the struggle is gone for a great part of the game. For me the 6 person party is overall harder because you level slower. I had the feeling if your solo character survives the beginning it get OP really fast.
I am getting excited to recruit Valygar and try those backstabs. I am currently trying with my charname but cant seem to hit. Could this by because I have a shield in my offhand?
Normally I would totally agree with you. But the last 3 runs I had Haer'dalis in my party. My last run I had 2 blades. So I wanted a little break from him. I know that Haer'dalis is a great tank. This time Jaheira gets that role. With iron skins, hardiness, the level 1 spell that gives resistance and that combined with earth elemental transformation will make a great tank.
I am not sure which equipment you mean regarding Nalia and Neera? Maybe the robe of Vecna? Rings wil be the ring of double level 1 spells for Neera and for Nalia maybe an extra fire resistance ring for 90% - 100% fire resistance. Nalia wel do bow and Neera sling and staff. Headgear will be the thayan headband from tob for Neera. If you some tips on equipment they are very welcome
There are also creatures immune to backstab, usually the giant ones like the dragons and obviously if a mage is protected by a stoneskin you don't make any damage, but only consume one layer of protection like with a regular attack.
That told to stab you must fulfil 2 requirements, you have to be invisible, both from hiding in shadows and by spell or potion, and you have to be at the back of the enemy, while the enemy can also stab you frontally you can not, the frontal attack even if you are invisible counts as a regular attack.
The reason why you don't hit can be that you did not roll high enough to hit the AC of the enemy, you can check it enabling the view of the rolls from the game options, if you see miss there is the reason, hitting from invisibility gives you a slight to hit bonus, but if you Thac0 is crap and the enemy has very good AC you will miss often, the fix is to rise (make lower) your Thac0 as much as you can, with items, spells using a weapon with high enchantment, this is one of the reasons why the staff of Ryn is so good in early SoA, being +4 gives you 4 better thac0 and rising your STR as high STR gives Thac0 and damage bonus. The damage bonus from STR is not multiplied in a stab. I.e. the belt you can buy from Ribald gives you 19 STR so you get 3 points better Thac0 and 7 more not multiplied damage. With that staff and that belt and a Bless from your cleric you have 8 points better Thac0 and you have much better chance to hit even well armoured enemies.
If the enemy is immune to your damage because he is protected by a spell or for some other reason obviously you can not stab him and he will not take damage at all or maybe take some collateral damage like when you stab a mage that have stoneskin on with a sword that has some fire damage, he takes only the not multiplied elemental damage and the stab is not effective.
If the enemy takes the damage, but it is not multiplied one of the conditions to have a successful stab is not fulfulled: he is immune to stab, you are not at his back, you are not invisible or you are not using a weapon that can stab so a mlee weapon that a thief can use before UAI, you can not stab with a bow or a 2H sword and you can not stab with a staff that can be used only by mages, like the one of the Magi. in all those cases if the roll to hit is successful the enemy takes the full damage, but the multiplier is not applied.
So seeing if the enemy takes or not the damage and if not if the to hit roll is successful or is a miss you can figure out why your stab has failed.
- You get +4 to hit when striking from invisibility with a melee attack.
- Any such stealth attack, by a character with a backstab multiplier, also negates the target's DEX modifier to AC.
- When striking in melee against a target with a ranged weapon equipped, you get +4 to hit and deal +4 damage. Backstabbers are very well positioned to exploit this since the enemy doesn't get a chance to switch weapons, and the bonus damage is multiplied by the backstab multiplier.
Put all those bonuses together, and even a vanilla thief can hit reliably on backstabs. You just have to actually satisfy the conditions of "invisible" and "behind the enemy".
Question: do the +4 damage bonus if the enemy is equipping a ranged weapon get multiplied in the stab or is regarded as the STR bonus and is not multiplied?