Plain Fighter vs Archer Ranger
areyeoh
Member Posts: 1
Hey,
Is there any positives for playing a plain Fighter with ranged weapons as opposed to an Archer (if both are only using bows/crossbows)?
So far the only positives for Fighter I can think of is:
- Don't have to be a good guy
- Don't have to pretend to like the woods or nature
- Don't have to be a human/elf/half-elf
- Better fashion (more armor options)
- More health because Fighters level faster
Please help extend the list. I know Archers deal more damage because they have that damage/accuracy scaling ability but I'm not sure how significant that is in early/mid/late stages of BG1/2. When you factor in that they level less and a lot slower, is the gap in damage still massive?
I'm really just looking for excuses not to play the good nature boy for the umpteenth time in this kind of game just because I like shooting things. Please don't recommend throwing weapons or Kensais.
Is there any positives for playing a plain Fighter with ranged weapons as opposed to an Archer (if both are only using bows/crossbows)?
So far the only positives for Fighter I can think of is:
- Don't have to be a good guy
- Don't have to pretend to like the woods or nature
- Don't have to be a human/elf/half-elf
- Better fashion (more armor options)
- More health because Fighters level faster
Please help extend the list. I know Archers deal more damage because they have that damage/accuracy scaling ability but I'm not sure how significant that is in early/mid/late stages of BG1/2. When you factor in that they level less and a lot slower, is the gap in damage still massive?
I'm really just looking for excuses not to play the good nature boy for the umpteenth time in this kind of game just because I like shooting things. Please don't recommend throwing weapons or Kensais.
0
Comments
To be honest, there's a lack of evil companions that are solid longbow candidates in BG1. There's no Kivan or Coran equivalent. Montaron would be a good candidate but he's already so invested in slings it seems like a waste. Eldoth is pretty much the only evil one where it makes sense. So longbow protagonists work well in an evil themed party, imo. And of course BG1 is kind to any plate mail character so there's that edge over Archers. Tankiness is always good on the protagonist, even if they're not on the frontline.
Strongest asset for the Archer is the stealth imo. Very powerful again if wanting to avoid reloading a bunch.
I think the experience point you bring up is a minor factor. The experienced required is about 10% more between the classes. So 80-90% of the game you should be the same level.
At BG1 levels, you're looking at one or two points on that archer damage bonus. With bows that add their enchantment bonus to damage, arrows that do the same, and considerable elemental damage on the elemental arrows, archery is fantastic even without the kit.
In BG2, bows and arrows get a lot worse. No enchantment bonus to damage anymore, and even the composite longbow damage bonus is halved. That makes the Archer kit bonus a lot more important. Without it, the damage scaling stops at disappointingly low levels.
If you give Mazzy the most damaging bow (Gesen) and arrows (acid) in the game, that's an average of 17 damage per hit with her grand mastery. That's something you can't do at all until chapter 6, because you need to have Cromwell put the bow together and one of the pieces is in Spellhold.
If you give Kivan the +1 composite longbow and acid arrows, that's an average of 16.5 damage per hit. That's a vanilla ranger with nothing more than specialization, and gear that's available for purchase from day 1.
Weimer's old "Tactics" mod included the kit component of the "Generic Archer": The Archer kit, but applied to a Fighter instead of a Ranger. You couldn't Stealth or cast spells, of course, but you got the ranged THAC0 bonuses even faster than the Archer did (due to the Fighter's faster level gain), and IIRC you could Specialize (**) in any melee weapon. The "Six's Kitpack" mod also included the Bowman kit, which did much the same thing except slightly slower: It got the same ranged bonuses as an Archer of equivalent EXP, as opposed to the same Level.
You don't need reliable stealth to have useful stealth. One of the most important stealth applications in BG1 is wilderness scouting, and for that you always have time. Keep trying to hide until it works, go out and look for stuff, and fall back before you become visible when you fail a check.
And rangers get the standard race and dexterity bonuses; if you're running a 19 DEX elf, that's +30 to both stealth skills for 45% success for level 1. That's already good enough for scouting, and it gets better. By the end of BG1, you're basically not going to fail stealth checks unless you try to do it in broad daylight (stealth cut to half) or in sight of an enemy (auto-fail).
re: evil companions with longbows; Montaron, Dorn and Shar-Teel are just fine if you put their free points into the longbow. Obviously the good-aligned ones, especially Coran, are a little better.
I'm just going to reinforce what jmerry said here. Stealth might suck at level one. But my experience with using Kivan shows that a character with just a 17 in Dex can get pretty decent hide in actual darkness by level 3, so long as you keep the stealth boots (it was around 67%). You won't even have to do alot of waiting if you rely on using the shadows from trees and rocks to hide. And I think this is a way to play the game that adds more fun to it. Early BG1 has a sparse game world, but it feels a little more dynamic using this scouting method. And of course the hardest parts of the game, the dungeons, you are always in the shadows. And as Jmerry notes, you can easily make a protagonist with a better Dex than Kivan.
Yeah, I'd strongly disagree here. The problem with investing in longbow for someone like Montaron is that you won't get a second point in longbows until levels 6/6 or 64,000 XP. You max out at levels 7/8. That's basically near the end of the game for most playthroughs. So, sure you unlock Montaron with longbows for the Tales of the Sword Coast stuff and maybe the tail end of the core game, but that's it. And it comes at the cost of either adding a blunt weapon for versatility or leaning into some cool melee setup, such as single-weapon style for improved backstabs or two-weapon style to lean into his frontline potential. You're squandering the companion's potential this way imo. Sling options are crap in the game but the potential of strength bonus from potions, bullet bonuses and Montaron's racial bonus makes it a perfectly fine ranged option.
Even more true of Dorn, who has already invested all initial points in the two-handed sword essentially. Sure adding a bow as a backup weapon here is good, but you're squandering his strength and damage potential, and his awesome tankiness despite no shield with Spider's Bane. For what? A basic longbow attack that again only unlocks at the tail end of the game? Nah, gimme permanent free action on a frontliner with 19 base strength, instead.
Shar-Teel is probably the closest to make sense for bows, but again, she already starts with a solid ranged weapon for early bg1 with daggers, due to the strength bonus she can add. It doesn't scale well, sure. But again you're investing in longbow from a zero starting point, meaning you won't get effective usage until the late game. And, just like Dorn, there are melee weapons that you're better off using as a primary, dagger of venom or greywolf's longsword. I'd argue there's a wide gulf between how effective these three will be with the longbow and Coran, Kivan or heck even Khalid.
Given the wide diversity of companions in the first game, I recommend against trying to bend them into a role where you're not maximizing their base potential. Lean into the strengths of their base build.
As for ranger stealth, I always put the "thief controlled" script to them, switching from detect trap to hide in shadow.
Even at level 1, an elven archer with 19 dex will often be stealthed, great in no reload run to escape bandits ambushs.
If you are open to mods, the arcane archer kit from Artisan's Kitpack is also a good alternative.
I guess it depends on how you play. I always semi-solo BG1 until my main has 32K XP, so then the companions join with 32K XP as well. iirc, Montaron and Dorn get their second point in longbow around mid-Chapter 4 or early Chapter 5. And of course I melee with Dorn and other fighter types when enemies get close, but I normally always start with ranged. Also, you can use the bow with just one point in it early on. There are two Deadshot+2 longbows, and the one you pickpocket from the Ghost Knight is available very early. Monty probably does more damage with it than his sling early on due to the 2 base attacks even when he only has one point in it. But the real reason that I go for longbows on Montaron and Dorn is because of arrows of dispelling. If there were throwing daggers of dispelling, then I'd do with daggers on Dorn's free points. And you can of course use the sling with Monty until he gets his second point in longbow.