Thief Builds?

ksSilkstepper

I'm wondering what solid options there are for Thief Builds?

I've read a lot of threads on Assassin-soloing and things like that, but I'm not sold on backstabbing. I guess I'm more of a hack'n'slasher. There also seems to be a ton of talk about Dual-classing a Human Thief into a Fighter or even a Mage. I've always been partial to using a Halfling as my Thief because of the racial bonuses. I'm not sure if I'd like to go the Mage route (although the Find Familiar spell seems to be quite over powering especially in the early game stages). So questions!

1) Can a Swashbuckler be a legitimate front-liner? Not a tank, but a source of dmg at least?
2) Should I dual-class or just go straight Halfling Swashbuckler?
3) if I dual-class when/how should I do that with a Swashbuckler?
4) How would I go about dual-classing a Swashy with a Mage IF I wanted to? i.e. which first?

CaptRory

1) Yes. They're pretty rough and tumble, but they won't be tanks.

2) That's up to you. Whatever you think will be more fun.

3/4) Start with a Swashbuckler. One you've maxed out the skills you want, like Open Locks and Find Traps, hit the dual class button on the Record Screen and choose mage. You'll want to make sure you have 18 int for the Mage Conversion. This will make you pretty kickarse.

ZanathKariashi

Swashbucklers can fight...but they're pretty bad at it (worse then a plain thief imo...1 good backstab is worth more then 40 levels of swashbuckler bonus damage at about x3+ and can benefit from single/two-handed weapon styles increased crit chance) (and can only wear up to studded leather and have thief hit dice so they don't take hits very well at all). It's mostly due to their lack of attacks. Though in BG2 you can get a pair of speed weapons that give them almost the same number of attacks as a fighter and they do MUCH better (still worse thac0 then a fighter, but about the same as a cleric which is acceptable, and UAI or access to high AC leather armors fixes their getting hit problems)

Halflings make horrible swashbucklers (the worst in fact, as the other shorties are much better, most of halfling racial thief skills are in hide/MS which are largely wasted on a swashy)....anyone else could eventually get 19 str (+3 hit, +7 damage), but the halfling will only get a max of 18 (+1 hit, +2 damage..only a +1 damage net gain over 17 str), and the crappy thief thac0 at low levels will hurt ya (a backstabbing thief gets +4 to hit for being stealthed...technically you COULD do that on a swashy, but it only effects 1 attack, and a BSing thief will hit A LOT harder). It doesn't hurt as much in the sequel, but in BG1, it's sorely missed when it's needed most.

A caster is ALWAYS last in a dual-class because they get the majority of their power later. Warriors are the most front loaded, getting most of their benefit by 9, while thieves, depending on the kit and what skills you want (100 Find Trap, Open Lock, Detect Illusion are essentials if you're only dipping for skills) at around 10-11ish. Assassins make horrible duals since their biggest perk requires level 26 and they get a pitiful amount of skill points (poison weapon is alright, but that alone isn't worth only dipping a few levels, they also get +1 hit/damage...but...you could just play a Skald for about all the good it does (and give your party some rather nasty bonus's in process without even bothering with dual-classing)). Bounty hunters are decent at 11, they get their strongest (damage-wise) thrown trap and enough skills points to max 4 skills (assuming 18+ dex) while having a respectable x4 backstab, the swashy...is pretty bad...they can't backstab, but they do get....+3 AC, +2 hit/damage, but their lack of proficiency points means you have to focus heavily in one weapon only if you plan to dual-wield...they make decent archer's though since the damage bonus applies to all physical damage.

Find familer...is ok...but if it dies you permanently lose 1 constitution every time (So at the end...is the bonus HP worth permanently taking up a bag slot for? Or risk losing a fair amount of hp later if something happens to kill it.) The only time I bother with a familer is if I'm a F/M and have the ferret as it can pickpockets...easily the most useful of the bunch. My one major complaint is that the familar is alignment based. If you could choose the familar when cast (obviously locking out good from picking demons, and evil from picking the good dragons, but animals are true neutral and would work for any alignment)

Space_hamster

To be a real tank, you really need to wear plate mail....but a Thief can be deadly with the right combination of weapons and tactics. One minus for a thief being a tank is that they simply won't have enough HP to survive really tough enemies.

IMO go for the halfling, they are fun!

CaptRory

Familiars can often have useful abilities and spells. Like @ZanathKariashi said, one has pick pocketing. The Chaotic Good one can cast Invisibility Radius 10ft which can be very handy. BG:EE has added at the very least, a gem bag and potion bag. And ammo can be stacked into bundles of 80 instead of the original 20 of BG1 or 40 of BG2, so I have more space than I know what to do with, so one slot for a familiar is NOTHING, hehehe.

The benefit of a Swashbuckler Mage is that, a Swashbuckler is itself like half-thief half-fighter. You give up backstab for having a thief that can act in a standup fight. Combining that with a Mage is almost like having a Fighter/Mage/Thief multiclass, only you're only leveling up one class at a time so you should be leveling up really quick. It also saves on Experience so your total mage level will be much higher.

The downside is that you won't have as much health or as many attacks or weapon proficiencies as a Fighter/Thief or a Fighter/Mage or maybe even a Fighter/Thief/Mage.

It's a good combination if you want your guy to do a little bit of everything. Hint: There's a sword in the second game that lets you cast more spells, I think it's a Katana. It'd make a good offhand weapon if your main focus is on magic. So you might wanna grab the proficiency for it while you're doing the Thief Thing 'cause mages can't take the proficiency for it.

ksSilkstepper

I didnt even think of the strength loss of the halfling! Derp. Good (and blatantly obvious) point. Perhaps an Elf due to the fact that Id like to be able to jump in an dual-wield if necessary, but don't want a tanking char.

Sorn

In BG:EE, ranged weapons are rather powerful - an elf would only add to the strength of a Fighter/Thief, as they'd probably put good use to the high STR and DEX by using a bow.

ZanathKariashi

str has no effect on ranged damage in BG1, with exception to throwing knives and axes. In BG2 there are 2 slings that allow it as well, but no bows or crossbows.