Fighter/Thief - Single Weapon Style Worth it for Extra Crit Chance?

shylaman

I am (re)starting a trilogy run with a dwarf fighter/thief. Amongst the mods I have installed are Rogue Rebalancing, Song & Silence, and Item Revisions. One of the components of Item Revisions reduces the backstab multiplier of larger weapons, making backstabbing a little more realistic.

• Daggers, Short Swords, Wakizashis, Ninja-Tos, and Clubs
• No Penalty
• Long Swords, Katanas, and Scimitars
• -1 Backstab Multiplier
• Quarterstaffs
• -2 Backstab Multiplier

So, no doing the usual backstabbing build with QS and one pip in two-handed weapon style for the extra chance to crit. Ultimately, my plan is to duel-wield clubs to mix things up and use some weapons I never use.

Is adding a pip on SWS for the extra chance to crit worth it for backstabs, if I will start out ranged with the Xbow and then transition to melee while dual-wielding? I still planning on plenty of backstabs either way.

For starting proficiencies I was thinking either:

Option 1 - I would get the extra crit chance for backstabs and then a pip in daggers for Dagger of Venom.

Level 1: **Clubs *Xbow *SWS
Level 3: *Dagger
Level 6: *TWF
Level 9: **TWF (late SoD or early SoA)

OR

Option 2 - I would get move into melee and dual wielding sooner and then specialize in dagger for Boomerang and Firetooth in BG2.

Level 1: **Clubs *Xbow *TWF
Level 3: **TWF
Level 6: *Dagger
Level 9: **Dagger (late SoD or early SoA)

Level 12/15 for both builds I was thinking two pips in short sword. I know Katanas and Scimitars are more powerful for backstabs and Celestial Fury is a beast, but I don't know if I "see" a dwarf, especially a dwarf rogue, using a big ass katana or scimitar. Kundane or Scarlet Ninja-to (same category as short swords with IR) would give me access to a speed weapon if I find clubs too mundane late game.

jmerry

The extra crit chance is a pretty small thing; a second dot in a weapon you're making use of is a much bigger deal. And the other benefit of the style is overshadowed by just using a decent shield. But by the same token, for a warrior, there's very little point in putting a single dot into a weapon unless you're planning to put the second dot in sometime soon. Two points to hit is not a very big penalty, and at high levels when you reliably hit just about anything it's practically nothing. Why not just use that crossbow non-proficient and invest in daggers instead?

DinoDin

Mostly agree with jmerry, though I do think he underrates the extra crit chance, which can be a good practical damage increase -- for certain classes. Though it's far better on two-handed weapon builds.

That being said, fighter/thief should generally speaking eschew backstabs as a tactic. Because of the extra attacks per round that fighter gives you, the time it takes to position for backstabs is coming at the cost of quite alot of regular attacks. Fighter/thief is actually best as either an archer type or a secondary tank, especially if you choose a shorty like you have with dwarf. Same would be true of halfling too. Maybe you backstab as an opener in a fight, but that should be it. Even in BG2 where your multiplier climbs.

In fact, it's worth considering putting points into weapons that thieves cannot use, and reducing your thief aspect to their non-combat skills. Clubs are terrible. But warhammer means you can use Crom Faeyr and, imo more important, the +3 dwarven thrower in BG2. A super clutch item that can be used to bring down terrifying enemies like iron golems. And Ashideena in BG1. Don't get me wrong, you might want to couple that with a backstabbing weapon as well, but you'll have enough points to do that, with say daggers. So, it's worth it to think a little outside the box on this build. I definitely wouldn't get clubs at all if you're also getting dagger. Get warhammer or flail instead.

Unless youre deadset on backstabbing for roleplay reasons, of course. I'm merely suggesting what's effective in the combat system.

DinoDin

If you are completely committed to stabbing, the quarterstaff is actually your best option. One of the easiest +3 weapons to get in BG1 and one of the only early +4 weapons in BG2. As I said, two-handed weapon style does alot better than single-weapon style. Blunt damage is the favored damage type in the saga, you shouldn't need a single other backstabbing weapon. And you're probably not doing alot of playthroughs with a quarterstaff guy on the frontlines, right? So it'd be something new perhaps.

For efficiency you could combine that with daggers and easily max out your needed weapon proficiencies at an early level. Using throwing daggers for ranged. Two in dagger, two in staff, one in two-handed style, two in two-weapon style -- seven total needed so you'd be done by level 9 as you note with your other builds.

gorgonzola

@DinoDin I disagree about backstab being only useful at the beginning of a battle for a FT. He has the Thac0 to reliably hit foe with good AC and if it is true that to go to hide and come back in the middle of the fight is not worth as you loose many attacks there are other ways to attain invisibility as you are fighting. Some items and rhe potions, but also the low level and fast to cast mage spell and after getting UAI even the leftover scrolls can be used in the middle of a battle to get some more stabs almost without loosing apr if you are good at postioning the frontliners in the right way. At the cost of a couple of lev 2 spells from your mage and a potion and counting the starting invisibility from hiding in shadows a FT can land 4 stabs in a couple of rounds throwing in also some regular attacks. I am not even talking of the use of mislead scrolls, that is OP and can be done once each rest without even spending the scroll using the Simulacrum from the Helm or of the use of the terrain features in some dungeons and areas when a Thief can use a couple of corners to hide in the short time when he has turned the corner and is not in sight so he can stab the pursuing enemies many times without almost retaliation, long reach weapon and haste or speed boots make it easy if the player learns to time properly the thief actions to have the hide button active as the Thief turns the corner. In all those things, that every Thief can do, the FT has an edge as he has more chance to hit and good apr to become invisible by other ways, in some battles it is even possible to stab 3 times in the first round (HiS + helping mage spell + potion) and that can change the tide weakening the enemy party right at the beginning of the fight. Obviously there is a compensation as a single class Thief gets better multipliers earlier, but still stabbing can be an extremely useful and effective tool for a FT if the player likes. Not all players have fun using those ways, and that is fine, after all we play for the fun, but a FT committed to use the stabs at their full extent can be a badass Charname.

jmerry

Actually, the original claim appeared to be closer to not using backstabs at all. Which ... well, no, I wouldn't go that far. A backstab to open the fight is obviously good, unless you really want the heavy armor for that battle. And maybe even then, because there's tricks involving putting the armor on while you're already hidden.

I like to go for tactical flexibility on my (multiclass) fighter/thieves; they're tanks sometimes, archers sometimes, and skirmishing backstabbers sometimes. And all it takes to switch between roles is an equipment shuffle, if you build them right. Never quite as strong as a dedicated specialist in a given role, but always appreciated when you need more of one particular thing.

DinoDin

I mean yeah, what you're talking about is high level combat and having some of the top end gear. I'm not so sure it's all that solid of advice to be honest. I think practically speaking, for much of BG1 (that's where this thread is) and even early BG2, you're going to get more mileage out of your FT just staying in the open and fighting. Doubly so if you're relying on two-weapon style which does terrible for backstabs.

I'm just not sure it's great advice to say "hey this works... if you have ToB levels and top end BG2 gear". Sure, every kind of tactic works once you have that stuff.

jmerry

DinoDin wrote: »

I think practically speaking, for much of BG1 (that's where this thread is) and even early BG2, you're going to get more mileage out of your FT just staying in the open and fighting.

But not always. If I'm up against something like a pack of Blacktalon elites or sirines that's a threat at range, I'm definitely opening with a backstab. Or multiple backstabs. That bonus damage from hitting an archer with a melee attack is so tempting, and the survivors are then in melee range so they have to scatter if they want to use their bows...

(An example pic from my no-spellcasting run. Which features me missing one of those attempted backstabs, because sometimes you roll a natural 1.)

And that's what makes a fighter/thief multiclass so good. You can take advantage of those opportunities when they come up, and just fight straightforwardly the rest of the time. That run's protagonist Magpie normally wore heavy armor and played as a tank. But all she had to do was take the armor off for a moment, and she could open that fight with a backstab.

DinoDin

For sure, I never meant to imply that the backstab opener is a bad tactic, and apologies if my posts implied that. Though I do think it can be a little risky. That being said, even in the exact example you give, ranged FT (especially protagonist) is arguably the greater "power game" option for those encounters. Less likely to die and thus game over, much better practical interrupt odds -- key on those sirines.

Soido

I don't recommend to play fighter/thief class with expectations of backstabbing and wearing top gear armor and being that powerful. It doesn't work like that I am sorry to say. You have to constantly switch armor because you can't hide in shadow in heavy armor. It sounds well in concept I get but it is bad cumbersome way to play this long game. At the end you will backstab only a few times barely worth it, just go pure fighter then. Pure thief is more challenging grind but highly satisfaction with solo elements.

F/T is not good, is redundancy. Either play pure fighter or pure thief.

Clubs ? for F/T. Okay club them to pulp but if you doing no death run you will probably not select clubs as much better options exist.

Crossbows ? For F/T ? Again redundancy. You go xbow with archer class. This is the most powerful class in BG1, not even berserker comes close as how easy it is to play, powerful, dps, safe class for main character.

I have done no-death run (perfectionist all dlc all quest no save scum) with a barbarian with full fighter party no mage no basilisks cheese the real hardcore rpg stuff. Hardest battles are Sarevok and the demon after Durlag in Ulgot Beard is a very difficult fight and Karoug, it is recommended you do Karoug after Durlag because you cannot go unprepared to that fight without + 3 weapons and so on support (although I have seen solo cheese tactics there). Also duke fight is tricky without mage but clerics have a good stun at higher level. The duke fight is solo nightmare if not playing a mage/sorcerer virtually impossible. I can't see how F/T can do that battle unless extremely lucky.

It requires a lot of metagame knowledge to do a no death run. I am currently transitioned to playing Civ 6 sometimes till crazy morning hours and I often would google some information like bgee .... instead of civ 6 .... by habit because I played BG like crazy a month ago. I dropped the game in SoD although I like it but my understanding of the mechanics is that the game becomes quite a hog the more levels you get, it becomes a bunch of buffs constantly and that puts me off as a mechanics