Best melee and ranged sustainable damage dealer character
Zorutar
Member Posts: 16
Hi everyone, I would like (from powergaming and pure mathematics perspective) to ask for suggestions/tips in terms of BG1:EE and BG2/EE as non-main character used in customized full custom 6 members party:
1. The best character for melee damage per round (DPR). It would be something around half-orc Kensai?
2. Melee character with the best THAC0?
3. The best character for combination 1 and 2. *Ideally (but not necessarily) for both cases same character.
4. The best character for range damage per round (DPR). It would be something around elf Archer?
5. Ranged character with the best THAC0?
6. The best character for combination 4 and 5. *Ideally (but not necessarily) for both cases same character.
Intention/purpose: I'm working on project related to optimized full custom 6 members party with:
1. Tanker - Apparently main character with HPs, best Armor Class, Saving Throws and defensive buffs.
2. Damage dealer (melee) - this is subject of this post research. I want use melee weapons and melee support items during game run in terms of party diversity.
3. Damage dealer (ranged) - this is subject of this post research. I want use ranged weapons and ranged support items during game run in terms of party diversity.
4. Damage dealer (thief) - I need thief skills during game run.
5. Bard - As backup second spellcaster support and for Skald's song and still thinking about this character slot.
6. Mage - I want have at lease one main spellcaster during game run in terms of party diversity.
Do not count Black Blade of Disaster for this particular reserach and do not count external buffs - only internal character buffs + other factors such as race, class, abilities (+also inherit abilities), skills, items, weapons etc. Please attach concrete calculations. Thank you all for feedback.
1. The best character for melee damage per round (DPR). It would be something around half-orc Kensai?
2. Melee character with the best THAC0?
3. The best character for combination 1 and 2. *Ideally (but not necessarily) for both cases same character.
4. The best character for range damage per round (DPR). It would be something around elf Archer?
5. Ranged character with the best THAC0?
6. The best character for combination 4 and 5. *Ideally (but not necessarily) for both cases same character.
Intention/purpose: I'm working on project related to optimized full custom 6 members party with:
1. Tanker - Apparently main character with HPs, best Armor Class, Saving Throws and defensive buffs.
2. Damage dealer (melee) - this is subject of this post research. I want use melee weapons and melee support items during game run in terms of party diversity.
3. Damage dealer (ranged) - this is subject of this post research. I want use ranged weapons and ranged support items during game run in terms of party diversity.
4. Damage dealer (thief) - I need thief skills during game run.
5. Bard - As backup second spellcaster support and for Skald's song and still thinking about this character slot.
6. Mage - I want have at lease one main spellcaster during game run in terms of party diversity.
Do not count Black Blade of Disaster for this particular reserach and do not count external buffs - only internal character buffs + other factors such as race, class, abilities (+also inherit abilities), skills, items, weapons etc. Please attach concrete calculations. Thank you all for feedback.
Post edited by Zorutar on
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Comments
For starters, Thaco is a function of class and level. Every class starts with 20. Warriors, of all types, improve at a rate of 1 per level. This is the best rate of improvement. Fighters, regardless of kit, have the easiest experience table of the warrior classes, so they will all have the best Thaco.
Some races and kits have bonuses with particular weapons; so for example, an elven fighter should always favor some sort of sword.
Specialization up to Grand Mastery is the next biggest factor. But going above specialization (2 pips) is generally only available to single or dual class fighters (not other Warriors, and not multi).
Strength has the next biggest impact on a Warrior’s melee Thaco, so any character that will melee should have an 18 strength (18/00 and 19 are best attainable under normal circumstances).
Most of the same applies to archers, except to mention the Ranger-Archer can get up to Grand Mastery with missile weapons at the expense of defensive abilities (a fighter who simply gets Grand Mastery in bows is almost as good with a bow, and much better when forced into melee).
And of course, dexterity modifies Thaco instead of strength.
In all cases, read over race, class, kit descriptions to see what all the specifics may be. Personally, I find the defensive weakness of Kensai makes them unsuitable as a main character. But that’s part of the calculus in decided what works for you. I prefer more balanced and would rather give up a couple points on maximum damage than ALL my armor!
Second for melee would be Rasaad thanks to his ToB item that gives him righteous magic (10 Apr for guaranteed 20 damage per hit before any other bonuses). Second the ranged, if memory serves, was an archer with slings.
Points to note regarding ranged: thrown weapons and slings add STR damage that bows and crossbows can't compete against. When looking at raw powergaming numbers, these are the best options.
Good point with thrown weapons and slings. Thank you.
It is tempting, but I recommend against chasing end game numbers. It's fun putting the numbers up, but that is solely it: endgame. You still have early and mid game to contend with. Also, there is no such things as a "Tank" style character. You can't draw aggro, and AC does little by end game as enemy Thac0 is too advanced. Some of the best "tanks" become Fighter(x)->Mage duals.
Regarding mods, you can have a skald act as your thief with my work. This can free up a slot for another class if you prefer. I'm not sure what your appetite is for mods, but what I would recommend for party composition will change drastically depending on if you are playing vanilla or modded.
I feel another restart coming for me...
Kensai gains to hit and damage bonuses faster than the Archer. The Archer's bonuses cap out in vanilla, so they won't go as high as the kensai. Even with extra arrows, the Archer is significantly behind the kensai. It's really hard to make up for the +10 to +12 damage from STR.
1. Tanker -- Dwarven defender or Berserker. I truly favor berserker here, the immunities from enrage allow anti-mage, anti-cleric tanking in a way no other class has. Defender will get a better armor class and some insanely good damage reduction. But tactically, enrage is such a boon. Go with a shield for maximum tankiness of course, with the lone exception of the dual-flail build. But I think most players will have more fun An underrated item to build around is the +3 Dwarven thrower. Valuable for its enchantment level and damage type but also as one of the few +3 missile weapons you can get. Can be used in melee. That hammer, or axes, or daggers can get around the Berserker's one negative, making him just as versatile as any other fighter, with no downside.
2. Damage dealer -- Based on the rest of your party composition, I'd go two-handed sword here. Again, an early +3 option is available, and its defensive bonus is excellent. And options are great throughout. One point in two-handed style as early as you can. Great candidate is paladin here, if you're planning on a good playthrough. And good playthrough is powergaming. Other option could be barbarian, but you lose alot on armor class with that for awhile.
3. Ranged -- Archer is undoubtedly the best here. While shortbow is the technically stronger option here, if you're insisting on a single class thief, than longbows might be better. While it won't be the best DPS long term, long bow has worthwhile tradeoffs. The first is you'll get the lowest thaco possible. That really should be your goal on this character, from a powergaming standpoint. More than DPS. Key for landing clutch interrupts in combat. The second benefit is that you'll be a tad stronger at the start of BG2 than with a short bow. The options from either buying something like Strong Arm or Elven Bow at the De'arnise keep are solid.
4. Thief -- If you're insisting on a single class thief, tean you will end up trading off some combat prowess. I think straight up powergaming, you may want to consider combining characters 3 and 4 with a fighter-thief. It will more than cover your thief needs and you can pursue either shortbow or longbow and contribute enormous damage output for the party. This would open up a slot for a divine caster, which you lack. But if you want a single class thief, I think assassin, with shortbow is something that gets about as much consistently good combat contributions as you can from a single-class thief -- one that isn't an NPC anyways. Dagger worth considering too if you have high strength.
5. Bard -- I won't have much to say about these final two, there's not much to their builds. It's more about what spells you prepare with them. I'll say on both, don't just forget about their weapons. BG engine has independent cooldown/turns for attacks and spell casts. So you should always be sneaking in ranged attacks when you can with your casters. Longbow, shortbow great bard options of course, to provide that extra attack chance.
6. Mage -- Powergaming, you should go with a subclass here and the best is arguably Illusionist. But literally just about any will do and be fun given your bard. Just stock the missing spells on your bard. I tend to find this one specialist mage, one bard combo quite effective.
All classes are at max level with 22 STR and DEX. More STR boosts BOTH Kensai and Archer with Slings by up to an additional 40 damage per round (25 STR). All Archers, excluding the Kensai, are using the Gloves of Extraordinary Specialization for an additional +2 damage.
Kensai - Firetooth+3 throwing dagger, Kai, and GWW
Archer - Gesen, Fire Arrows, and GWW
Archer - Fire Tooth, Kuo Tua Bolts, and GWW
Archer - Erinne, bullets+4, and GWW. Please Note: This is the only character on here with Specialization, the others have Grandmastery.
The Kensai will deal some damage but he also can eat some serious damage and have to retreat kite and so on. There is no such thing with an archer - that is pure dps consistency and I think this is what OP is looking for
This is only first step into identifying the class, but there is much more like which weapons, as morpheus shows above archers need xbows so 5 pips there is a must. Plus just look how beautiful and fitting with a xbow elf she is on this screenshot from BG1 my last game which I abandoned and looking for inspiration to resume playing, but I want to play thief. I am little bit tired of these dps monster classes like archer, barb, or bezerker and want to find inspiration in playing weaker classes for challenge sake (of course with high dps party to compensate)
Notice also the thaco at level 6 - thaco 6. This is only level 6 and it gets better from here, speaking about dps you have to factor thaco because what good a class is with enormous dps potential if can't hit
I cannot quite back it up, just rumors posts and such, but in fact archer is not only obviously the best dps archer class out there, but in fact the best consistent dps class out there. Not to factor in that you can shoot and switch aims from across the screen. No boots of the cheetah even needed to close distance as a fighter to an enemy mage. And with this thaco no spell can be cast. Put on top of this Called Shots, put on top of this bolts with extra damage and nasty effects. From across the screen fire at will
He is not the best possible ranged or mlee damage dealer or the best tank, but buffed is pretty close to the best in each role and not buffed is good enough for the minor encounters.
I don't know how he is effective in BG1 or SoD as I never played a FC in those games, but in BG2 is really versatile and effective PG wise.
No armor makes you mince meat kite clown
What dps are we talking about here
Kensai is a joke thesis. We rather look at bezerkers vs archers, take that kensai out of the equation at all
What dps, with invisibility tricks ? By that time an archer will deal thosands of damage
Show me some full party Kensai screen at level 6
In a vanilla game, how are you getting your Archer to 500 damage per round (50 per arrow hit) outside of having party buffs and skald song? Sling Archer is the closest available in game and still unable to break the 400dpr mark.
Of course the problem with these calculations is that this is endgame calculations
add
1d8 - bolt
8 - levels
5 - weapon firetooth
1d10 - special bolt damage
x6 multiplier - apr hasted
31x6/2 is about 90 per round end game
90x10 per turn 900
average. max x2 1800
1d8 - bolt
8 - levels
5 - weapon firetooth
1d10 - special bolt damage
x6 multiplier - apr hasted
31x6/2 is about 90 per round end game
90x10 per turn 900
average. max x2 1800
90 dmg/round is not a very high end game output, as I told the FC, that is a multi role and not a dedicated ranged toon, can get 300 damage/round as long as he has GWWs to spend and an Archer with sling and the right equipment can do better.
Ranged toons shine at the start of the saga, but their relevance fades as we approach the end of it, an Archer rules in BG1 and has still a role in TOB, but there the arcane casters rule, a well used Mage can slain the 2 forms of Draconis solo on insane and without getting a single dmg in about 4 rounds at the cost of only 2 lev 7 spells, bith PI, taking down his huge MR, dispelling his protections and killing him with a barrage of low level damaging spells that he casts at machine gun speed thanks to Improved Alacrity, RoV and AoP, the high output ranged toon is still useful at that stage, but is no more the king.
With an archer and without mods, you will not get those numbers. 1d8 means 1 to 8 damage which on average will deal 4.5 damage a hit. You calculate this as hitting at 8 for every hit which is only possible with Kai or Righteous Magic. Archer doesn't get these in vanilla. Same goes for the bolt damage.
You are missing sources of damage and have incorrect numbers listed for the damage.
You are also missing the 5% chance of a crit miss which means 0 damage. Why are you multiplying by 6 then dividing by 2?
For reference, if you look at my numbers above a sling and crossbow Archer will be dealing over 3k damage per turn (against uncritable enemies). The sling Archer can boost an additional 400 damage in this time since the chart above shows unoptimized strength.
Also to note, if memory serves, optimized melee can easily deal 5k to over 6k damage in one turn. I love Archer, but it has a hard time competing for top physical damage.
Yet if we stick with your chart calculations one can see that Kai archer is only about 50 damage more than archer (380 and 330).
This difference is too negligible I think and also let me ask you - you use Kai ability right ? Which last for how many seconds ? 10 ?
The archer is not using any limited ability. We are looking at consistent damage numbers and fire at will. OP title says he is looking for sustainable damage. Kai is not in this category because 10 seconds fly like this.
So while Kai archer will do slightly more raw damage, it will be highly situational 10 second ability and then it is over. OP should not assume that Kai will deal so much damage always.