New to BGEE 1 and 2. got a question

ChewedPencil

So I have been wanting to make a character that is a Shadowdancer/Mage that is primarily a rogue, but with access to buff/debuffs/basic aoe damage to deal with groups of lower level enemies before taking out the big guys(skull trap my beloved). I have read that level 13 is when i should dual class into mage, but im curious on how all this works. I should mention that i would like this to be a more solo style with taking my companions out to do their quests when needed.

1. When Dual classing, i know you have to wait till the second class is higher than your first class to get all the abilities back from the first one, but are you able to dual class back to increase levels more?

2. Is it worth it to use the Rogue Rebalanced mod in this day and age?

3. I primarily want to use daggers in my main hand, but i hear that there is a wakazashi that gives me +1 apr even in my offhand, how many pips into wakazashi should i add? should i even care about apr with backstabbing/invisibility pots?

4. i know the max cap in BG1 is 161k exp, i havent been able to really find any info that tells me what level that actually is when starting as a shadowdancer.

5. would it be worth it to uncap my exp to get to level 13 in the first game if said exp doesnt reach that level?

6. Should the answer be no, using the dlc bridge campaign between 1 and 2, what level should i be at when starting BG2EE? If reaching exp caps in all areas before exporting to BG2EE.

7. When it comes to alignment, does it really matter, since i plan on going into daggers and not scimitars, I want to try and stay at a neutral rep and be a more ruthless rogue, unafraid to cut you down for your insults, but still has a soft spot for people in trouble who cant readily help themselves.

jmerry

1. Dual classing is a one-way trip. You can't dual-class again in these games.
2. No comment; I don't use that mod.
3. As a thief->mage, you can't invest more than one point into anything. Including the two-weapon proficiency, so dual-wielding will always come with at least a two-point penalty to main-hand attacks and is heavily discouraged. You should invest a dot into any weapon that you intend to use and any weapon style you find useful, and that's it.
4. A thief with 161K XP is level 10, having just leveled up at 160K.
5. No. Level 13 is 660K XP, and you just aren't going to get there unless you're playing with a very small party or adding tons of mod content. My full-party completionist runs of BGEE tend to end up somewhere between 250K and 300K per party member, and that's with me exploiting the joining triggers to jumpstart things by recruiting a party at 32K XP.
6. The SoD campaign's cap is 500K XP, and you can expect to reach it playing normally. At which point you'll be a level 12 thief.
7. Alignment for the protagonist is almost entirely roleplay. It affects starting reputation slightly, along with usability for some items that don't really matter to you. And when you hit high-level abilities and take Use Any Item, you can ignore alignment-based usability restrictions.

[Edit: corrected a detail; thief level 13 is 660K, not 440K.]

ChewedPencil

Thank you for the information! This really helps with my planning! The info that is oput there is a bit spread out and assumes you know alot about the game beforehand!

Ridcully

#2. Rogue rebalancing does allow three points in dual wield for rogues

Ridcully

#3 not sure about a Wakazashi, can't remember coming across that. However in the same style there is a Scimitar and a Ninjato that give extra an APR. There is also a Short sword that does this. Open to correction but have in the back of my mind that the extra APR is for the main hand weapon only even if the extra APR weapon is held in the off hand

jmerry

Ridcully wrote: »

... the extra APR is for the main hand weapon only even if the extra APR weapon is held in the off hand

Yes, that's true. Extra attacks per round, whatever the source, are always taken by the main-hand weapon. Improved Haste, doubling all attacks, is the only effect that gets you an extra off-hand attack. (The Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind HLAs include Improved Haste for the round they're active)

The extra APR melee weapons, before any mods:
- Kundane +2. +2 short sword, +1 APR.
- Belm +2. +2 scimitar, +1 APR.
- Ninja-to of the Scarlet Brotherhood +3. +3 ninja-to with added poison, monk only, +1 APR. (Usable by rogues with UAI)
- Boomerang Dagger. +2 throwing dagger, +1 APR. (2d4+2 damage, usable only in the main hand)
- Firetooth +3. +3 throwing dagger with added fire, +1 APR. (2d4+3 damage, usable only in the main hand)

All of these are only available in BG2.

gorgonzola

Yes the extra apr is for the main hand so a rogue DW with a +1apr weapon in each hand gets 3 attacks with the MH and 1 with the OH, if he is under Improved Haste he gets 6 and 2. By the way imho to play a thief at low levels is really interesting and fun but end game your charname will be much more powerful as mage, just always be aware that he is not a warrior and will shine only if he does not try to emulate a warrior. As thief use the tactical superiority given by the scouting to carefully plan traps placement and stabs and as mage learn the very complex magic system of the game, you will lack of thac0 ac and apr compared to a warrior, but you will be more powerful then a warrior if you use the tools of your classes at their best.

Aerakar

2. I always include Rogue Rebalancing in my installs, but I only install (1) the extra thiefly items, (2) the component that allows 3 pips in TWF for all thieves, and (3) the beefed-up BG2 encounters. Some people like the kit and HLA changes. I tried them, but later eschewed any significant kit changes in my games and in recent years do not install those components.

Soido

Something you need to know - once you dual class, in your case level 13, you cannot level shadowdancer anymore. From that point onwards you level only as mage class and you will remain only level 13 shadowdancer. No thief HLA for you and probably no mage HLA either, one has to calculate the XP tables to confirm but likely no mage HLA either because Level 13 is quite late already.

I am no fan of dual classing main char, the game throws you plenty of dual classes in BG2 as companions.

People who do duals are usually power hungry players aiming at super efficiency late game. By that point the game is so much over imo. They already know what they are doing and it is not recommended for a new player in BG to start with dual class.

Play a pure shadowdancer first, that is the core. Don't worry about spells, you will have mages in your party and you will experience all the buffs and so on first hand from them.

But I will say this, go on with your original plan to dual at level 13. You will reach BG2 by that point or late SoD. By that time you will have quite good grasp of the game and you will take final decision if you want to stick with dual. So for now you can safely do shadowdancer and only worry about the dual dilemma much much later.

gorgonzola

Rogue lev13 is reached at 660K xp and Mage lev14 needs other 1.5M xp. The down time can be shortened buying or stealing all the available spell scrolls scribing and erasing them after kicking the NPCs from the party, in BG2 each level of a learned spell is rewarded with 1K xp so a charname dualing to mage can regain the starting class skills quite fast if also some quest rewards are left to be claimed right after the dual. A thief dualing to mage at 13 has little less then 7.5M xp left for the second class so will hit the cap at mage29 that gives the same memorization then mage 31, the highest level a mage can reach 8nside the cap, he looses only 2 HLA, but gets plenty of them, 12.
A multi gets earlier HLAs and gets them from both the pools, but to reach lev 9 spells takes forever and end game is a way less powerful mage, with only 2 lev 9 memorizations ( unless he is a Gnome, but there is Jan that covers perfectly the role ) and looses the ability to hide in plain sight unless a mod or EEKeeper is used.
I think that playing that dual is a good choice for a beginner that will learn how to play as a Thief in the first 2 games and as a Mage in BG2 while having a short down time and plenty of rogue skills to be the party Thief. It is a PG choice, that is true, but maybe one of the most novice friendly that lets Charname be relevant trough all the saga.

Soido

Anyone can learn how to play a mage as long as has a mage in his party so I don't think you have to dual mage in order to learn how to play a mage.

I am no fan of duals but even if I were then shadowdancer/mage is not good at all. I don't know I think he mentioned solo in his post so that might be argument he sees there but again worst thing to do as a new player - solo attempt and dual with basically zero knowledge of the game. No it is a failure in its inception

gorgonzola

I agree that soloing is not the way to go for a first time player not only because of a failure or at least a very frustrating game playing with the hardest battles that need a lot of reloads, but also because playing a party lets learn all the aspects of the game, physical combat, casing arcane and divine magic, rogue tactics. Soloing the start is hard, then you play soon with an over leveled toon, that gives to experienced players an advantage but gives to the novice a distorted image of the game mechanics then near the end game becomes again hard. From late SoA on and particularly in ToB the solo toon has hit the xp cap while in a full party all 6 are beginning to close the gap, also the party casters can cast high level spells, the warriors have reached the lowest thac0 and maxed the apr and so on and they are 6 with the full range of skills in a well balanced party.
To run a small party of 3-4 people seems to me way better for a first time if the player does not want to run a full party.
It is true that is possible to learn how to play a Mage playing a NpC, but we want our charnames to be relevant trough all the saga and a Thief late game has more a support role as many bosses can not be stabbed and he will lack of thac0, defence and apr to be relevant in combat. He can set Spike traps, detect illusions, do some scouting and throw in some stabs vs minor foe and open doors and containers, but even the dual can do the same almost as well HLA traps excluded. The dual at that point will be a powerful Mage, as good as a NpC main mage so will be relevant untill the end instead of shifting to a support role while the fighters and casters carry the party.
And if the OP really wants to solo the game a Mage is way easier then a Thief soloing the end game.

Soido

Very well said Italian cheese. I personally prefer salty fetas but each to their own tastes

I am still searching for inspiration to renew playing BG as a thief but even if I don't I am left very satisfied and highly recommend it. This game is evergreen classic. I achieved my goal of beating it (plus sotc) ironman perfectionist (on core difficulty). Slight disappointment that it was with a barb.

But I cannot for the moment continue on SoD end and tackle BG2. It is a humongous game, where do I start from ? Next week hopefully I get a job nothing certain had an okayish interview last week, then I am very allured from Wasteland 3 to start playing and that game is serious rpg that can easily take months to perfect, then Elden Ring dlc might come along any moment I think february eta, so in other BG is a game that requires a window of opportunity to invest and go deep into. I had my time and achieved my goal. But it is a huge game if you continue to BG2 and beyond. Maybe another time. Nice community you have here and I was happy to be a small part of it while playing

Soido

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MICPyrnGYwg

gorgonzola

I agree about different tastes, there are many ways to play the BG games and a lot of play styles cam be effective, this is one of the reasons why those games are great and still played. I wish you luck with your new work.