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Blackrazor vs. Foebane +5

Which is better? I keep seeing both recommended for tanks in ToB to keep them alive in insane mode, but I never see anybody compare and contrast the two to determine which is better.

LMK what you guys think!

I’m considering this for a dwarf defender or barbarian with lots of DR to help keep them alive. TIA!

Comments

  • EnuhalEnuhal Member, Moderator Posts: 1,059
    I personally would strongly prefer Foebane between the two. The 15% proc chance of Blackrazor is not reliable enough for my taste. However, if DR is the main part of the defensive concept (though I would personally prefer not to tank with anyone but a well-buffed arcane spellcaster or sturdy summons such as mordenkainen's swords on insane for most challenging lategame battles), I would certainly play with the Defender of Easthaven in the off hand, which would kind of lead me towards putting the FoA +4 in the mainhand - the slow proc is an incredibly powerful defensive tool as it heavily reduces incoming damage (unless you already have the FoA marked for another party member).
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,881
    On the current state of Foebane's LMD: life drain was fixed in general, so you get healing every hit but don't stack increased maximum HP. LMD is subject to magic resistance and heals equal to the actual damage, so no healing against golems and greatly reduced healing against magic resistant foes like drow or dragons. However, the weapon is still bugged a bit, now in the player's favor; that version of LMD doesn't do the creature type check and can hit undead unlike the spell. (The weapon directly casts the damage subspell rather than casting the original spell)
    You also don't get any healing if you kill the enemy with the physical damage, because the on-hit effect triggers after that damage is dealt.

    Blackrazor's healing does not rely on the enemy being vulnerable; you always get the full 20 when it triggers. And you get haste and bonus strength; irrelevant if you've already buffed that, very nice if you're playing more buff-light.

    A physical resistance tank can absolutely stand up against late-game threats, though I've never played in double damage mode. I've done some SCS dragon fights ... imagine a paladin up front with Hardiness, Armor of Faith, and the Defender for 85% total physical resistance. Then have every other member of the party put up stoneskins (two druids, two mages, Anomen with the Gargoyle boots). The SCS AI would rather attack into that 85% resistance than try to wear through the skins, so the dragon focuses on the paladin. End result? I got through the four-dragon fight at Abazigal's place with only one healing action (to counter the acid breath that I wasn't fully immune to), and everyone would have lived even if I hadn't taken that action.
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 786
    Hey there, hi there, Klorox! Long time no see!

    I'm with Enuhal. I prefer Foebane.

    In the absence of magic resistance, Foebane will heal slightly less than 4hp per hit, on average, with minimal variation. Setting aside the regen, Blackrazor will heal 3HP per hit, on average, with substantial variation due to the probabilistic nature of the proc. Factoring in magic resistance makes the case for Blackrazor stronger, particularly if you don't have access to LR, but there are other factors to consider.

    Foebane is a plus +5 weapons whereas Blackrazor is a +3, limiting what it can hit. Also, choosing Blackrazor over Foebane will cost you -3 to your saves, since you'll be sacrificing the +1 from Foebane and the +2 from the Hell Trial. You can navigate around that latter penalty, true, but we're above that, aren't we?

    There are certainly circumstances where I'd prefer Blackrazor, but if I had to choose one over the other, I'd go with Foebane.

    Cheers!

    A.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,881
    Alesia_BH wrote: »
    You can navigate around that latter penalty, true, but we're above that, aren't we?

    I'm not. I've cheerfully let good paladins wield Blackrazor in my good/neutral parties, while definitely getting the good reward for that trial.

    The trick here is that it's possible to give Blackrazor back to the genie and then kill him. He's scripted to teleport away, but if you have your party arrayed around him you can force-attack and deal lethal damage before that teleport completes. Just give the "not sure" answer at the first chat, move your party into position, talk again to hand the sword over, and then execute the betrayal.

    Incidentally, many parties will end up in a situation where both weapons are options for the same character, and you can switch them up as needed. A paladin or ranger with specialization in both long and bastard swords because they have so many dots to spread around, a bunch of clerics and druids that can't wield either, non-fighter rogues that aren't interested ... they really are competing for the same niche.
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 786
    edited July 14
    jmerry wrote: »
    I'm not. I've cheerfully let good paladins wield Blackrazor in my good/neutral parties, while definitely getting the good reward for that trial.

    Noted! Different strokes and all, my friend!

    There are a few ways to do that. There always have been. They're too cheesy to even consider, in my book. Developer intent is very clear here and I prefer to respect it. I take the same approach to the other Hell Trial exploits.

    Letting a paladin or ranger wield Blackrazor is also questionable from a lore perspective- especially if you subscribe to the White Plume Mountain theory.

    All told, that move is definitely not my style. I'm glad you enjoy it, though!
    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,063
    For the purpose of staying alive, as noted above, the FoA-DoE combination is probably one of the best. It is worth noting that the elemental damage is also good for interrupting wizards.

    Other than that, I subscribe to the notion that a good offense is the best defense. Damage mitigation as your primary defensive strategy only works if you have perfect control of the battle - if you know in advance what your opponents will bring to the table. I was just surprised to learn that (at least in my current mod setup) Abazigal can and will cast Imprisonment. My protagonist stood in the first line since I had too much confidence in his 100% resistance to both Slashing and Electrical damage. (that was the second surprise Imprisonment in this run, the first coming from Angelo, against his own daughter)
    If it's just HP, you can usually recover those one way or another. What you want to avoid is leaving the initiative to your opponents.

    Neither Blackrazor nor Foebane will keep your character alive if they fail a save and get paralyzed, but Foebane will make the possibility of that happening less likely. While that does make Foebane the superior defensive weapon to me, the important thing is to put into check every damn bastard who would attempt to paralyze your character in the first place.
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 786
    edited July 15
    It's good to hear from you HT! It's been a minute.
    Neither Blackrazor nor Foebane will keep your character alive if they fail a save and get paralyzed, but Foebane will make the possibility of that happening less likely. While that does make Foebane the superior defensive weapon to me, the important thing is to put into check every damn bastard who would attempt to paralyze your character in the first place.

    Noted! I've historically taken the opposite approach. I've always been a defense first player, and that has always worked for me. That said, in recent years I've typically rolled solo or with an all arcane party. In those particular circumstances defense first makes sense.

    I've found myself modifying my approach in my current run. I'm running a canon party for the first time since the mid 2000's. We're a little over halfway through Chapter 2/3 in a SCSv35 + Ascension Insane run. I'm posting on it over at TavernRPG. We haven't had any close calls yet, although our battle with Drasus in BG1 did get a little sketch due to an unanticipated V35 change.

    Running a full party featuring non-arcane characters is well outside my comfort zone. I'm leaning as I go. With relatively vulnerable characters, and a comparatively large number of attacks/actions, I've found myself moving towards more aggressive battle plans. Had I read this post a couple weeks ago, before my current run, I might have offered a counter-argument. Right now, from the perspective of my current party, I recognize that your view has merit. Thanks for sharing!

    Cheers!

    A.

    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,063
    I was genuinely surprised when I saw your posts. It's odd to come across some of the familiar names from the old Bioware forum. Having just lost my prior home on the internet, I won't be able to settle down here, but the illusion that there might still be a place for me is tempting, nevertheless.
    (I apologize for the off-topic; I actually meant to send this as a private message, but since the PM system appears to not be working, I am posting it here out of necessity and omitting that apology - this is a one-off though)
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 786
    edited July 15
    Lol. If anyone deserves an apology it's Klorox. It's his thread after all. My guess is that he doesn't mind. He's a BioWare alum, too. You two know each other, right?

    Anyhoo, it's good to see you! If you are searching for a new online home, TavernRPG is another place to consider. That's where I hang out these days. Serg is over there, too, along with Borco. I only pop over here when I encounter a bug, and need to discuss it.

    Cheers!
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 927
    Alesia_BH wrote: »
    Lol. If anyone deserves an apology it's Klorox. It's his thread after all. My guess is that he doesn't mind. He's a BioWare alum, too. You two know each other, right?

    Anyhoo, it's good to see you! If you are searching for a new online home, TavernRPG is another place to consider. That's where I hang out these days. Serg is over there, too, along with Borco. I only pop over here when I encounter a bug, and need to discuss it.

    Cheers!
    Good seeing everybody. Cheers!
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