kensai questions

Frodo02Ustad

does the kensai class ability (ki is it?) max things like theif back-stab or wizard spells? would it make a fireball (for example) do max damage?

FredN

.....It should be possible, but within certain parameters. You can't multiclass as a warrior/thief, and pick Kensai as a subclss. That means that you have to start out as a Kensai. In order to dual over to thief, you also have to be human. Now the question arises, WHEN do you dual over to thief? Remember, you can never gain more Kendsi levels/skills once you do so. But the higher the level you attain, the longer you willl take to level up your thief part. Forget Kensai HLAs altogether.
.....Also, I am pretty sure you can't pick a thief subclass, like assassin, once you switch over. Never tried it, but that would be consistent with the way dual classing works with other professions. Now for the big question: can you backstab with any weapon, like Ravager +6 or the +5 Psion Blade ... which would be ludicrously overpowered ... or would you be restricted to using only thief class weapons? I literally haven't a clue. I have experimented with a lot of profession variations, but this is a new one to me. If you want to be really prudent, you could spec your Kensai in weapons that a thief could use. Katana, ninja-to, long sword and short sword would seem the most likely candidates.
.....This also raises another question in my mind. Once you dual over and your Kensai abilities are damped, can you use equipment like studded armor, bows and the like? It would seem logical for this to be the case, but I can't be sure without trying this myself. This whole thread raises some very intriguing questions. I am curious to see other comments from folks more knowledgeable than myself.

FredN

OK I tried creating a Kensai with the proper stats to dual over to thief. Kensai level 18, thief level 1. Alas, despite the kensai part being inactive, I could not use any thief permissable ranged weapons, like a bow, or protective gear like studded armor. Oddly enough, I was able to put a pip into shortbow proficiency, but this was a wasted skill point since I couldn't equip one. Again, no idea without trying it if I can use large weapons once I get my kensai abilities back. I don't have the time to pump my weird hybrid up that high, so someone else will have to answer that one.

jmerry

Weird game mechanics bit: when you're a kensai -> thief incomplete dual, the game basically sees you as a pure thief with the kensai kit. And kit usability rules still apply even if that kit belongs to a different class, though the kit's abilities don't. You now have the thief-usable items minus those forbidden for the kensai, rather than the fighter-usable items minus those forbidden for the kensai. Once the dual completes, you'll have the fighter/thief-usable items minus those forbidden for the kensai. So, still no bows or light armor or helmets or shields.

It is a very good combination, with high synergy. Kensai damage bonuses and weapon mastery bonuses get multiplied in a backstab, plus lacking defenses don't matter much when they can't see you to attack. A kensai -> thief is probably the best backstabber in the game.
Then once you reach HLAs, "Use Any Item" completely erases all those unusability rules - the kit basically doesn't have a drawback at that point.

As for that question about Kai, weapon attacks only. Not that I bother using that ability when I play a kensai. It's all about the passive bonuses.

Grond0

Just to clarify one point above about backstabbing weapons. The backstabbing multiple damage is only given for weapons usable by a single class thief (before HLAs). Thus, while a kensai thief can certainly use the Ravager in combat, backstabs with it won't get that sweet multiple damage .

FredN

"The backstabbing multiple damage is only given for weapons usable by a single class thief (before HLAs). "
.....Aha! I was wondering if that were the case. That being so, one might want to get grand mastery in at least one such weapon before dualing over to Thief, and possibly even put a pip into two weapon use. Katana might be nice, there are a few stong ones out there. Belm and Celestial Fury come to mind offhand. Of course, you might want to keep Halberd as your main weapon skill; it's a pretty sweet weapon even without the backstab modifier. You could pump up evasion and greater evasion to compensate for lack of armor protection. Decisions, decisions.

Trouveur

Belm is not a katana.
In case of a fighter / thief, I would not waste weapon proficiency points in a weapon not suited for backstab.

FredN

.....Right; it's a ninja-to/wakisashi. I confused it with a different weapon for a minute. The reason I find Belm useful is the extra attack, which never hurts. I actually got a bit intrigued by the entire concept; I have a mild case of OCD, so I compulsively went and created such a character. I gave the kensai build high mastery in both katanas and wakizashi/scimitar. When I dualed over to thief, I also stuck a pip in dual wielding weapons. Note that there is a very nice 4x ninja-to, Usuno's Blade, which can be found on the very first level of Watcher's Keep. This gives me the option of dual wielding both Belm and Usuno's blade once I get full access to my Kensai skills. (I wouldn't try it right now since at my current thief level my dual wield THACO is abyssmal.)
.....I was initally worried about who would function to deal with traps and picking locks, so I picked NPCs who could cast find traps and knock spells. It turns out that I didn't really need to worry. Initially thieves gain levels at an extremely fast rate. After we hit Saradush and whacked Gromnir's first bunch of losers, my thief actually reached level 8 and had 100 in both find traps and pick locks, along with 65 in set traps. He's halfway to level 9, and his next skill increase will all go to set traps. Backstab is at 4x damage.
.....I gave my warrior NPC Halberd skills; he will be the one to wield Ravager +6, while my paladin type will eventually grab the Psion Blade +5. That is all waaaay in the future, obviously.

FredN

.....Ok, I gave some consideration as to why you are even considering this. I know why I am; it was an interesting thought experiment, and I wanted to see how it worked out in reality. But the only practical reason I could see would be to create the world's best combat oriented thief, letting your NPCs wield the super weapons. Yeah, backstab + Kai sounds pretty nice, but setting up a successful backstab can take a fair amount of effort. So, if you want sheer destructive power, you are better off keeping the straight kensai. You can use Imoen, Hexxat or Jan as your party's thief. However, if you really, really wanted to play a thief character but were unhappy with any of the usual builds, then yes, this would be a good variant for you.
.....I have a level 31 Kensai armed with Ravager +6 . He can perform Greater Whirlwind 3x per day, and has a THACO of ... sit down for this one ... -22. Toss in Kai on top of that and opponents pretty much vaporize on round 1, except for some end game bosses. As I said, an interesting experiment, so I am going to follow through with it, at least until I regain my Kensai abilities. But he's not going to be the engine of destruction that my pure Kensai is.