Thief dilemma solved! Err, well sort of. (Warning: Long post)
FredN
Member Posts: 373
.....When it comes to thief companions in SoA, there is a fairly big problem. There are only 2 to choose from, and they both have significant drawbacks. And before you start going off about Nalia and Imoen, let me stop you right there. Neither of them are primarily thieves. They are wizards who took thieving 101 as an elective in mage school. Imoen got an A and can pick locks and disarm traps fairly well. Nalia played truant a lot and got a C+. She can only function reliably as a thief if you give her the rings of danger sense and lockpicking, or a slew of potions. And neither of them can actually set a trap to save their lives. Nor can they ever gain more thief levels/skills.
....So that leaves us with only 2 choices. Jan Janssen is certainly capable as a thief, and his werid cyberpunk techno gear is unique. However, he does have a drawback, He's multiclass, which means his experience is split, and his advancement as a thief will be at half speed. Takes him a lot longer to get those sweet, sweet thief HLAs. Lastly, his HP total isn't that great, making him a bit squishy in combat.
.....The only other alternative is Hexxat. Yes, you do start off with Yoshimo, and he's great while he lasts. But I think we all know why he is not a choice for thief after the trip to Spellhold. This leaves us with Hexxat, who is actually pretty great, if used properly. Not only is she a single class thief, she has all those Vampire abilities, and her casket functions as a 99 slot bag of holding. Sweet! She does come with a certain amount of baggage however. The most obvious is that there are a number of companions who will not tolerate her presence in the party. Keldorn, Mazzy and Anomen are the ones I know about; there may be more. Also, her quests are a little weird, and once all her quests are finished, she goes a bit ... crazy.
.....So that leaves us with the last option; you yourself, the MC, take upon yourself the role of group thief. You do have the advantsge of choosing what thief subclass to become. But I have tried this, and I am basically a support character. I can't use the best wepaons in the game ... Ravager +6, the Psion blade +5, etc ... can't use the best armor, athough there is some fairly decent leather avialable, like the Grandmaster armor. But the rest of my companions have to do the real heavy lifting. Yes, you can multi-class, but then you will have the same problem as Jan: glacially slow advancement.
.....Then I got the idea of dual classing. I created a human Berserker (you have to be human to dual class; no idea why. Some game balance thing?) with maximum physical stats and 3 pips in bastard sword and longsword. I was 7th level, which means I hav 2 attacks per round with either weapon. I then dualed over to thief.
.....To make a long story short, when we exited Irenicus's dungeon I hit level 8 thief. I now have access to all Berserker abilities. I am wearing plate mail, wield a large shield, and can still use some thief abilities. I can detect, disarm, and set traps. Oh, and I have warrior health; I have more HP than either Jahera or Minsc right now.
.....Now, there are some thief abilities I cannot use while wearing plate mail. Anything relying on stealth (hide in shadows, move silently) is right out. Clanking around in plate mail is not conducive to stealth maneuvers. However, to compensate for this, I have picked up some studded leather and a buckler for use on those occasions when stealth is needed. I haven't tried going berserk and then backstabbing yet, but it sounds pretty nasty. I am really curious to see how this works out.
....So that leaves us with only 2 choices. Jan Janssen is certainly capable as a thief, and his werid cyberpunk techno gear is unique. However, he does have a drawback, He's multiclass, which means his experience is split, and his advancement as a thief will be at half speed. Takes him a lot longer to get those sweet, sweet thief HLAs. Lastly, his HP total isn't that great, making him a bit squishy in combat.
.....The only other alternative is Hexxat. Yes, you do start off with Yoshimo, and he's great while he lasts. But I think we all know why he is not a choice for thief after the trip to Spellhold. This leaves us with Hexxat, who is actually pretty great, if used properly. Not only is she a single class thief, she has all those Vampire abilities, and her casket functions as a 99 slot bag of holding. Sweet! She does come with a certain amount of baggage however. The most obvious is that there are a number of companions who will not tolerate her presence in the party. Keldorn, Mazzy and Anomen are the ones I know about; there may be more. Also, her quests are a little weird, and once all her quests are finished, she goes a bit ... crazy.
.....So that leaves us with the last option; you yourself, the MC, take upon yourself the role of group thief. You do have the advantsge of choosing what thief subclass to become. But I have tried this, and I am basically a support character. I can't use the best wepaons in the game ... Ravager +6, the Psion blade +5, etc ... can't use the best armor, athough there is some fairly decent leather avialable, like the Grandmaster armor. But the rest of my companions have to do the real heavy lifting. Yes, you can multi-class, but then you will have the same problem as Jan: glacially slow advancement.
.....Then I got the idea of dual classing. I created a human Berserker (you have to be human to dual class; no idea why. Some game balance thing?) with maximum physical stats and 3 pips in bastard sword and longsword. I was 7th level, which means I hav 2 attacks per round with either weapon. I then dualed over to thief.
.....To make a long story short, when we exited Irenicus's dungeon I hit level 8 thief. I now have access to all Berserker abilities. I am wearing plate mail, wield a large shield, and can still use some thief abilities. I can detect, disarm, and set traps. Oh, and I have warrior health; I have more HP than either Jahera or Minsc right now.
.....Now, there are some thief abilities I cannot use while wearing plate mail. Anything relying on stealth (hide in shadows, move silently) is right out. Clanking around in plate mail is not conducive to stealth maneuvers. However, to compensate for this, I have picked up some studded leather and a buckler for use on those occasions when stealth is needed. I haven't tried going berserk and then backstabbing yet, but it sounds pretty nasty. I am really curious to see how this works out.
Post edited by FredN on
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.....This one, however, seems more intriguing than most, with some decent potential. I think I will keep working with this as an alternative to my Blade when I want a bit of variety. The point being that it is a lot sturdier than a vanilla thief of the same level ... 100 health at level 8, can use heavy armor/shield, can attack with an APR of 2 using a bastard sword (looking at you, Foebane) and able to get all those great status immunities from going berserk. I am also wearing the Helm of Balduran. Heck, why not? Maybe swap that bad boy out for some other helmet; Helm of the Rock, or that helm that protects against charm/domination. And eventually I will get the Thief HLA's. Use Any Item witll make this build even more effective.
Seriously? You don't want to be able to set traps? Yeah, Imoen can disarm traps and pick locks, but she can't set traps for beans, and will never get any thief HLAs. She isn't a thief; she's a mage who took thieving 101 as an elective in magic school. A decent high level trap can one-shot a Fire Giant. Much better than trying to melee those suckers.
.....Traps also played a significant part in my showdown with Balthazaar and his Merry Murder Nonks. Hexxat was my thief, and by that time she was level 33 and could drop a total of 12 of those puppies.
Wizard Slayer -> Thief dual class is interesting. It's a bit of a novelty as Berserker is better, but it's an interesting concept - However it doesn't come into full play until you get Use Any Item.
Kensai -> Thief is a pretty popular choice too, again a case of Use Any Item HLA really changing things.
Swashbucklers can definitely hold their own in fights. Use the Scarlet Ninja-to and you'll have a decent amount of attacks as well.
Some late game enemies will hit you regardless of crazy AC, but that's when you apply proper meatshields and summons (or magic defense like Stoneskins and Protection from magical weapons)
With perhaps exception to the Kensai until you get Use Any Item, all these choices (Berserker -> Thief included) are strong frontline options.
I am currently playing a Wizard Slayer - Thief, and i intend to get to lvl 15 fighter before i Dual Class, or maybe even higher - depends if i get bored or not, with the restrictive item choices.
I'll combine that with a slew of different Magic Resistance items, and will have 100% magic resistance.. and apply miscast chance with every hit on enemies.
Not the most advanced or spectacular type of character, but it will fill two niches - Anti Caster and Thief, while also filling up slots as tank and damage dealer.
PS. I don't think Thief multiclass lvling a little slower is much of an issue. You'll have way more thief points than you need anyway, theoretical possibility of having MORE HLA than singleclass and the amount of normal traps kind of loses relevance beyond 7 which is max placed at any given moment.. you would have to either Blind your thief or leave the combat area to place more.
.....I may have been imprecise. Getting traps is not the only reason to get thief HLAs. Create potions and create scrolls are useful skills, and of course Use Any Item goes without saying. Also, I do believe you can set additional traps once some of the ones you have already set are triggered. (My memory is a bit hazy on this point, but I think I did it 6 years ago on my first game run-through.) I was planning on using this tactic in the ToB Balthazaar confrontation, where indeed you cannot leave the area. If I hit Hexxat with inproved invisibility and give her the cloak of non-detection, she can place additional traps without becoming visible. (I tested this out in SoA). Mind you, I am only in early chapter 3 of SoA, so this is far in the future. But Balthazaar was a PITA the first time we fought him, so I am planning ahead.
I get that it can be useful, and many players love playing that way. But it just doesn’t interest me. I like warriors going face to face, mages throwing fireballs, archers perforating a target… I like very “in your face” tactics. I would much rather put experience into *anything* else than a thief level above 6.
Imoen is literally the only thief I’ve ever needed, when she’s available. Nalia is fine for me when Imoen is not available, although admittedly she occasionally needs some help (potions work). I ran SoD a few months back with mage who dueled from thief at 2nd level, as my only team thief.
.....Clearly we have different play styles. While backstabs can be difficult to set up at times, it can be done. Note that thieves who are invisible, as opposed to hiding, can backstab. While it is true that in ToB everyone and his brother can often have True Sight or detect invisibility, well, that's what the cloak of non-detection is for.
.....And here is another thief HLA to get: Assassination. Lets the thief do backstab damage while being totally visible. Note also that some HLAs can be chosen multiple times. One time, I had picked create potions and create scrolls twice. This meant that every 8 hours I could create two of each. I had a mass prodiction assembly line line set up. Alas, this does not apply to the Assassination HLA; that bad boy can only be chosen once.
The Fighter/Thief HLA table is shared between classes.
Regardless of which class that levels up, you can choose any HLA from Fighter or Thief.
This means that if you don't choose Fighter HLA, you can get more Thief HLA as a F/T (23 total) than a pure Thief can (17 total).
So even as a multiclass, your thief class will be a LOT stronger than a dual classed or single classed thief could hope to be.
I'm sorry about that, but it's true.
As for setting traps during an encounter, it's the thief that needs to not see enemies.
In other words, the Thief must leave the fight without being chased enemies to place traps, then you need to kite the enemy into the traps.
Or you could make sure your Thief is blind, then you can place traps standing next to an enemy.. crazy how it works like that, but take it for what it is.
PS. most bosses, dragons, liches etc are immune to backstab.
"PS. most bosses, dragons, liches etc are immune to backstab."
That much I knew, but ... does that also apply to the Assassinate HLA?
It does apply to Assassination too, yes.
And it applies to F/T in terms of amount of HLA.
This is because a Thief gets his first HLA at lvl 24 as a single class, but the treshhold is 3 million xp for HLA for a multiclass, regardless of class level
That means a F/T will level up more times from 3 million xp (23 times) where as a Thief caps out at lvl 40, so that's 17 HLA
This also applies to a Dual Class, just even worse. XP in first class counts towards total XP (8 million is cap), but XP in first class does not count towards HLA. So if you level up as a fighter high enough, then you can't even get to 40 as a Thief, and thus get even less HLA.
F/T will always be stronger in the big picture, even if it won't get weapon mastery and special abilities from first class (Berserk, etc)
A Berserker->Thief is the only one that can compare because of that ridiculously overpowered Berserk ability.
IMHO single thieves are a waste, a multi loses nothing and have access to a whole other class.
Oh yeah, I love berserk!
"t does apply to Assassination too, yes."
Crap! Actually, I suspected as much, but one can always hope.
"IMHO single thieves are a waste, a multi loses nothing and have access to a whole other class."
.....We are going to have to agree to disagree here. Although I may be a bit misguided due to always having Hexxat as my thief in ToB. She does have all those OP Vampire abilities ... blood drain, domination, summon a whole pack of shadows, immune to level drain, immune to posion, regenerates damage ... obviously a merely mortal thief would not be quite as good. But still, I don't think a pure thief would be as terrible as you imply.
.....Unfortunately, I can't think of any way to test this except for creating a single class thief and running them through ToB until they started getting HLAs. And then doing the same with a F/T multiclass, and comparing the end results for effectiveness. I really have neither the time nor the inclination to do all that.
.....And it is totally possible to complete the game with zero multiclass personnel. My First playthrough had the following crew for the final battle: MC, a half-orc Berserker (cliched, I know), Sarevok, Dorn, Hexxat, Viconia and Edwin. Not a single multi-class in the group, and we kicked butt. I have every reason to believe my current run (with a Blade as MC) will end up similarly.
.....And of course, gear helps also; we had all the top of the line stuff. I had Ravager +6 and a bunch of Greater Whirlwinds, Edwin's gear gave him a ton of spells and a ridiculously fast casting time ... etc. etc. You get the picture. Everybody was buffed to the max.
Nah, they get them at the same time. First level up after 3 million xp.
For a single class thief, that's level 24.
For an F/T that would be at level 14/17
.....Let's forget HLAs for the moment. My math could be way off, but won't a single class progress faster at getting profession specific skills? Like a Berserker or Kensai achieving Grand mastery in a specific weapon earlier than a F/M multi?
.....Lastly, ... and this is just preferential, and not for game mechanics reasons ... I love my all evil crew! I could be missiing someone, but I can't think of any evil multi-class companions offhand.
And the whole point was about single class thief and multi class thief. A single class thief brings nothing compared to a multiclass one.
Thieving skills points are abondant in BG2, and max backstab can also be achieved by multiclass.
Jan Jansen is neutral, he can fit in an evil party.
"Jan Jansen is neutral, he can fit in an evil party."
::sigh:: You seem to be mssing the point. I am perfectly aware of Jan's alignment. I know what multis have access to. MC's opinion of neutral characters is that they are fence sitting wusses who are too wimpy to commit themselves to one ideology or another. I only tolerate Jaheira (temporarily) because of her epic Harper quest, which gets ME more power (i.e. experience/levels) as we wend our way through it. And yes, it is quite compatible with my character's ideology for me to cooperate with a neutral as long as there is benefit to ME, and then drop them like a hot potato when their usefulness is over. I am rotten to the core! I exult in the over the top viciousness of Dorn's Bloody Path! Hexxat is the best thief EVER! Bite me! (And I mean that literally. Want a drink, Hexxat?).
And for practical game purposes, my all evil crew kicks butt! Furthermore, the more collateral damage inflicted, the more innocents that perish, the more they revel in it! Muahahahahaha! Errr, sorry about that; lost control for a moment. ::blushes:: But I do hope that clarifies things.
Her stats without the cloak might seem good at first but I honestly think much of them are wasted. The high charisma is of marginal utility considering the early ring you can get. The lack of a good constitution is really the key here. Her high strength might seem good at first, but employing her for backstabs or any kind of melee fighting is risky because of that lower HP pool. Unlike fighters, she's vulnerable to critical hits for much of the game. Her thief abilities quickly max out, especially considering how many skill boosting potions there are.
Her death mechanic might seem great at first, but it ultimately ends up wasting the player's time. It's nice in being able to avoid perma-death most times. However, this is not BG1. Pretty quickly in SoA your party should have some kind of raise dead or resurrection tool, just in case. And so having her in a melee role frequently risks this annoying post death dead time. But the other issue, is that as a backline party member, she's really not going to give you a great damage output. Bows take a hit on effectiveness in BG2. Throwing daggers are ideal, but it can be awhile before you acquire a high enchanted one. There's a limited supply of the poisoned ones, which are good, but also niche in their combat effectiveness.
Her vampire spells give her something of a mage-thief like capacity for your party, but none of them are overwhelming. It's just so obvious how much better Jan is than her. Again, I don't hate her character, but gameplay wise I honestly think she is the weakest companion in BG2.
.....Matter of opinion; a number of companions have downsides. Edwin can't be in the same party as Neera, for example, while Dorn's quest line is highly unsavory and drops the group reputation. Jaheira is tempermental, and after a certain point in her Harper quest, if you try to remove her from the party, even temporarily, she goes off in a huff and never returns.
....Hexxat is average in SoA, but gets better in ToB, when she can summon a bunch of shadows. She can also get the Assasinate HLA, Use any Item and set a bundle of traps. You should never put her in the front line unless desperate. Give her something like the Tuigan bow and the upgraded bag of plenty and have her take potshots from the rear. Also, you are totally ignoring the fact that her casket functions as a 99 slot bag of holding.
.....Yes, I could use Jan in SoA instead of Hexxat, but I am thinking ahead to ToB. I want Hexxat as my thief there, but I'd prefer to have her inported with all her gear. Oh, and don't get me started on the whole thief problem in Baldur's Gate. The paucity of actual thieves (no, Nalia and Imoen are NOT thieves, and after Spellhold, Yoshimo is unavailable) is a pet peeve of mine.
We are talking about gameplay usefulness, notably during fights.
Party composition, quests and NPC mindset are another matter.
On a side note there is way to do Dorn's quests with minimal reputation loss.
You can also just let Jaheira in another room before dropping her to prevent her leaving dialog to trigger. You don't need to keep her in the party to have it. just recruit her, dismiss her, and you still have the casket. So it's not an advantage tied to have her in the party.
This is exactly why a single class, unkitted thief is probably the weakest class in BG2 from a gameplay perspective, and the main reason (along with CON) that Hexxat is the weakest companion. If she's not the weakest, who is weaker?
I obviously like very much that Beamdog added a thief option, as that was sorely lacking in the original set of companions. But it's unfortunate that she's both extremely limited in the party compositions that she works with and has the worst class/kit choice. Even making her an assassin kit (something that totally fits with her character) would have been a huge improvement.
Set traps is very very strong of course, but there's a limited number of fights where they are viable without engaging in some serious alternative tactics to get them to work, such as aggro + retreating. Detect illusions is also strong but wizards have great spells for that, as well as Keldorn and divine casters.
Hide in shadows, however, is weak mainly because you can't do it and find traps. And the parts where you're going to want to scout ahead are often the parts where traps might be present. Without extensive pre-knowledge of the dungeons, hide in shadows on your only thief isn't that good. It's often the last skill I boost on most thieves. As I said above it's also not great on Hexxat because she has poor combat survivability, making her a bit risky as a regular backstabber. Contrast that with Jan whose base armor and mage spells can, much more safely, be inserted into danger.
I just found the bow + potshots that you're talking about to be rather underwhelming. Even though you're right, it is probably the best general usage of Hexxat in combat.
.....Hexxat also has a better quest line than Jan, IMO. Jan's is illogical and in the end unsatisfying. Hexxat's makes at least a minimal amount of sense. Jan is in touch with ... a mindflayer lurking in the sewers? Who somehow knows what is going on up top, and halfway across the city? And it wants to hire us as assassins? Give me some of whatever the writers who came up with this scenario were smoking.
....."L"s motivation is to increase his own power. Pretty simple. Jan, on the other hand, just ends up doing what? Allowing his beloved sweetheart to wander off with her abusive husband, probably to be victimized again in the future. I thought there might be a follow up where we got to actually kill the scumsucker, but no such luck. Ick!
So, what do you use stealth for?
- Scouting. This actually peaks very early; it's fantastic in the BG1 wilderness, and gets weaker in more confined areas or where your foes have better counters. You don't need to scout ahead to have a good idea that there's going to be a fight in that next room - that's just how dungeons are built. But out in the open, you're not sure where that next pack of enemies will be, and scouting helps you set up for the encounter. (So, this is one reason why Kivan and Minsc are great; rangers have good stealth even without the need to invest points)
- Backstabbing. Here, you rely on a key fact: encounters that have both floor traps and enemies are rare. So when you find some enemies, you can generally feel free to run around and get into backstabbing positions. Or if you're going a different direction ... for my no-spellcasting run, my sole thief in the BG2 portion was a fighter/thief who normally wore heavy armor. Armor up for the fights, take it off out of combat to deal with traps and locks. And sometimes hide before the fight, put the armor on instantly without losing invisibility, and open with a backstab in full plate. Because the game is a bit silly that way.
A dedicated backstabber is a substantial investment, particularly in the attention needed. After all, that character is never just going to stand still and trade blows with an enemy. But it will absolutely reward you. And the answer to that thief dilemma, that you can't search for traps while you're constantly hiding? Have more than one thief.
On Hexxat as a backstabber ... she's got two things going for her. One, high strength means good THAC0. Which isn't usually that important given all of the to-hit bonuses backstabs get, but it does help you when you're going after less squishy targets. Two, vampiric immortality. If you make a mistake and she gets squashed, you just have to wait around for an hour (game time; a few minutes real time) and she comes back.
Plinking away with a bow really isn't worth much in BG2. You'll do it with the mage/thieves, because they have spells when they want to contribute more to combat. But for Hexxat, backstabbing and traps are really the only way she has of making a big impact in a fight.
And just as an anecdote, my favorite Hexxat backstab moment, from my evil run:
My party was doing the assassination mission for Bodhi in chapter 3. Being an evil party led by Dorn, we decided to actually kill the guy with the provided dagger. Now, the Shadow Thief dagger is possibly the weakest player-usable weapon in the game - 1d4 damage, no strength bonus. Worse than a generic dagger. But Hexxat snuck into position, stabbed that politician in the back ... 80 damage, instantly gibbing him. She rolled a maximum-damage critical hit. 4+4 damage for an unarmed target, x2 for the crit, and x5 for the backstab multiplier. Dump the murder weapon in the fountain, get out, and leave a real mystery for Athkatla law enforcement. Just how did that little dagger do that?
Not entirely true. She has 1 pip in shortbow skill, so I gave her the Tuigan Bow (3 shots per round) and some +2 and +3 arrows; she can snipe away from a distance when circumstances call for it.
Bows in BG2 just don't do a lot of damage. And thieves don't have the tools to increase that damage.
Plinking away from a distance isn't something you actively build a thief for. It's something you tell them to do if they don't have any better option at the moment.