Are evil parties feasible and worth using?

RagingOrc

Hey ppl,

So i recently got the EE and it's got me thinking about all kinds of BG things. One thing I have 'NEVER' done is play through the game or BG2 or TB with an evil character or party. From playing through the game a few times before it does seem slightly more swayed to the good or neutral types of characters.

That said, are evil parties feasible, fun and worth using?

I realise i have NEVER used some of the evil npc's for any great length. Edwin, Shar-Teel etc and I may have missed out

I guess in reality i'm a neutral kind of person but I also like justice so I normally end up going down a good path minus destroying a few ppl who annoy me etc.

I kinda assume you have to do horrible things as an evil party and that some of the npc's are not the nicest/fun to have in your party?

So yer, what are your opinions on doing an evil playthrough and having an evil party/tips and advice?

As my name gives away i'll probs end up being a brutal half orc like Dorn or possibly an evil sorcerer or fighter/cleric

Thanks

Mungri

You dont have to do horrible things unless you are role playing.

Worg

I would say being evil requires a different way of thinking. For example if you have a low reputation people don't treat you the same as a high reputation party. For example, and this is a spoiler, if you save that nobleman from the bear and he doesn't like you, he will not give you a reward. I however killed him when he tried to worm himself away and got the loot. You could play as a "good" evil party that is just generally unhappy. Anway I would would recommend evil over good any day. I would choose the Anti-hero every time.
But I think this quote will answer most your questions

So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

Oxford_Guy

Evil parties are *much* more fun IMHO, though try to keep your reputation at 6 or above, unless you want to be hassled by the Flaming Fist constantly. It's also perfectly feasible to have some neutral characters within your party, I'm currently using:

CHARNAME (Neutral Evil female elf figher/mage)
Dorn (Neutral Evil Half-Orc blackguard)
Montaron (Neutral Evil halfling fighter/thief)
Viconia (Neutral Evil elf Cleric)
Safana (Chaotic Neutral human Thief)
Neera (Chaotic Neutral half/elf wild mage)

I may swap Neera for Ediwn later, though am enjoying having her in my party for now

bdeonovic

Edwin is arguably the best mage in the whole game (only you can be a better mage). although it only really starts mattering in bg2.

OssiaN

My party:

Dorn
Shar-Teel
Montaron (Xzar is a nice statue in the basilisc garden)
Viconia

My main is a fighter/mage and i'm at the bandit camp...
I plan to drop montaron and viconia when i get Tiax and to bring kagain (with strength belt and dexterity gauntlets) and Edwin at that point.

marfig

The problem I had with this on the originals (both games) was that BG didn't really seemed designed for an evil party.

The general premise of the game is awesome and really fits with either a good or bad protagonist. As mentioned, evil people don't necessarily do horrible things. But the game plot and subplot has many situations not designed with an evil protagonist in mind. This will force you out of any chance to roleplay.

If you want to be evil you require two things:

- Keep an eye on Reputation. Being the case the original games never cared much to include NPCs (shops, subquests, towns, etc) suitable for low reputation parties, you will constantly have to make decisions that go against your protagonist nature just to keep a single number above the water line. I blame the Reputation mechanics as the major reason why evil parties don't work (from a plot point-of-view) on both BG games.

- Because of the above, you are best off not to try to roleplay your game experience. Play the game instead with an eye for stats and how you can abuse the rules of the game world.

It's being said that some of the best and most rewarding NPCs of the game are evil ones. It's a shame really that we aren't offered a world/plot where an evil protagonist will comfortably fit in. But, in all honesty, this has been a problem to this day. Every game presenting itself as capable of handling both evil and good characters always fails to do so on equal grounds.

Worg

bdeonovic said:

Edwin is arguably the best mage in the whole game (only you can be a better mage). although it only really starts mattering in bg2.

I did not know this. How can CHARNAME outmage Edwin?

Deucetipher

Evil parties are probably better than good parties. You get Edwin, a better mage than even CHARNAME, Kagain with his regen, and an early multiclass thief (so you can allocate his points as you like. I like Yeslick more than Viconia, but plenty will tell you the opposite. Yeslick is f/c, and with dex gaunts is extremely effective, but Vic gets magic resistance.

The only "best" NPC that you miss out on is probably Imoen. Furthermore, Imoen will stick with you even through low rep, and you can plausibly take her under a RP paradigm as well. (who say evil characters can't have affection?)

Shar-Teel can be dualed to thief if you want a good evil single class option, and it helps hide her low Con. Also gives you complete control over thieving skills, which is nice.

Eldoth is better than Garrick, if you really want a bard, plus his poison arrows are a treat.

Tiax is a treat for his dialogue alone, but he isn't a terrible char from a power perspective either. Clubs and quarterstaves both can backstab.

Of course, you have Dorn. Dorn is a beast. Fantastic stats and a good kit. My TN char has him in his party right now.

Venerate1

Ive been having lots of fun with the following evil set up:

CHARNAME: human fighter/cleric NE
Imoen (I like the thought of corrupting her long before BG"
Dorn
Montaron
Viconia
Edwin

So far they have an answer for pretty much everything I put them through. Keeping my Rep at 6-7 in order to get the 'evil' Bhallspawn gifts and cutscenes too.

elminster

Worg said:

bdeonovic said:

Edwin is arguably the best mage in the whole game (only you can be a better mage). although it only really starts mattering in bg2.

I did not know this. How can CHARNAME outmage Edwin?

I suppose in that you can know a greater variety of spells than him if you were to not specialise (or be a wild mage). Other than that Edwin beats you in the number of spells he knows per level. Unless of course you cheat.

Meiz

Started the game with neutral evil Berserker. Rest of the party is Dorn, Montaron, Xzan, Viconia and Neera. Having a blast so far, I'm so tired of doing whatever commoners ask for free of charge. Either you pay, or forget about it! You don't have to play psychotic evil. Although I had to go against the idea by donating 3000 gold for church (3 rep points increase). Taking both Viconia and Dorn early decreased the reputation by 4 and caused flaming fist to attack me on sight.

Czarny

I always found evil parties more fun because of the characters being somewhat more colorful and, as is often the case, simply more powerful than the goodies. I am, however, an absolute chicken and roleplay them neutrally. If the rep gets too high, I may commit an occasional bad deed or kill an odd peasant. BG doesn't really provide equally for good and evil characters.

My party:
Chimeris, my LE half-elf sorcerer
Dorn, NE half-orc blackguard
Kagain, LE dwarf fighter
Viconia, NE drow cleric
Montaron, NE halfling fighter/thief
Edwin, LE human mage.

They are a really mean combination to be around, especially if you've got a red ring around your feet

crawlkill

You can actually run a high-reputation all-evil party and not risk your buddies leaving. They'll only quit if your rep goes above 18, but if it momentarily should, you can just kick out Viconia or Dorn and then reinvite them; your rep will go from 19 to 20 when they go, then from 20 back down to 18 when they rejoin.

Or you can just install a "party members don't quit" mod and play with a bunch of grumbling evils all the time. That's what I'm doing this time around. And yeah, there are some deadly evil NPCs. Dorn is a monster (though I imagine any half-orc fighter THAC0 class would be...but still, he probably lands hits more than the entire rest of my party -combined-, even my dual-wielding blade while he's offensive spinning), and if you stick Edwin with Evermemory he can cast scads of first-level spells. Viconia's high dex makes her a great back-line cleric. I'm too much of a pussy to ditch Imoen, but I'm open for suggestions on whom to take over Branwen. Quayle, maybe?

Schneidend

The evil NPCs are some of the most powerful in the game. Dorn's 19 strength and 16 Dex make him a beastly front-liner, Viconia's high saving throw bonuses and magic resistance make her virtually immune to magic, Kagain has insane HP and can go from nearly dead to full health simply by resting or switching areas, Tiax summons ghouls IIRC, and Edwin has a crazy amount of spells at his disposal. Am I missing anybody?

elminster

Schneidend said:

The evil NPCs are some of the most powerful in the game. Dorn's 19 strength and 16 Dex make him a beastly front-liner, Viconia's high saving throw bonuses and magic resistance make her virtually immune to magic, Kagain has insane HP and can go from nearly dead to full health simply by resting or switching areas, Tiax summons ghouls IIRC, and Edwin has a crazy amount of spells at his disposal. Am I missing anybody?

Uhh yea Shar-Teel

Oxford_Guy

Schneidend said:

The evil NPCs are some of the most powerful in the game. Dorn's 19 strength and 16 Dex make him a beastly front-liner, Viconia's high saving throw bonuses and magic resistance make her virtually immune to magic, Kagain has insane HP and can go from nearly dead to full health simply by resting or switching areas, Tiax summons ghouls IIRC, and Edwin has a crazy amount of spells at his disposal. Am I missing anybody?

Montaron is a great all-rounder, has decent stats and gets a +4 shorty saving throw bonus. Some of the CN NPCs are decent too (Safana, Neera)

Schneidend

elminster said:

Uhh yea Shar-Teel

18 Dex, if I remember right. Give that amazon a bow or crossbow and she'll make it sing!

Oxford_Guy said:

Montaron is a great all-rounder, has decent stats and gets a +4 shorty saving throw bonus. Some of the CN NPCs are decent too (Safana, Neera)

Montaron's pretty cool, but I was more looking to mention the Evil NPCs that are especially powerful.

elminster

Schneidend said:

elminster said:

Uhh yea Shar-Teel

18 Dex, if I remember right. Give that amazon a bow or crossbow and she'll make it sing!

Oxford_Guy said:

Montaron is a great all-rounder, has decent stats and gets a +4 shorty saving throw bonus. Some of the CN NPCs are decent too (Safana, Neera)

Montaron's pretty cool, but I was more looking to mention the Evil NPCs that are especially powerful.

Shar-Teel's dexterity is 17.

RagingOrc

Hmm. I guess I'll give it a go then. Quite fancy trying out the npcs i've never used. Will probably go with a Chaotic neutral/evil party. You got a link to that mod crawlkill? Did you bodge apply it or is it fully compatible with EE?

RagingOrc

But i might HAVE to throw Minsc in....

Mechalibur

Schneidend said:

elminster said:

Uhh yea Shar-Teel

18 Dex, if I remember right. Give that amazon a bow or crossbow and she'll make it sing!

17 dex, actually, but she's also got 18/58 strength which makes her a pretty crazy archer or frontliner. And the strongest evil character before Dorn came along in the EE.

colonel_burger

@oxford_guy almost a mirror image of my own gang, 'cept I've got Monty instead of safana. Did you start as a human fighter and dual to mage, or are you a xeno multi?

Abel

Viconia's Wisdom was outrageously nerfed!
Anyway, I'm runing an Evil party and dual classed Shar Teel to steal from stores. But, wtf?! So far, no stores allow stealing? Beregost, Friendly Arm Inn, High Edge, none allow it. Obviously, with my Reputation of 1 prices skyrocket. So I guess I will have to buy off some Reputation. But since Flaming Fists keep spawning, I'm not sure I should do it without a lot of money.

Oxford_Guy

colonel_burgter said:

@oxford_guy almost a mirror image of my own gang, 'cept I've got Monty instead of safana. Did you start as a human fighter and dual to mage, or are you a xeno multi?

I took both Monty and Saffy, the former focusing on stealth skills to be my scout and backstab guy, the latter on locks and traps, and will give her the crossbow of speed when she gets another prof point.

I took an elf fighter/mage multi, am not a big fan of dual classing, I want to level up in both classes through both BGEE and BG2EE.

Oxford_Guy

Abel said:

Viconia's Wisdom was outrageously nerfed!

No, it's the same as it's always been in BG1, but she was given more Wis in BG2.

Abel

Oh, I see. Well I guess she's still a must for Evil parties anyway.

Oxford_Guy

Abel said:

Oh, I see. Well I guess she's still a must for Evil parties anyway.

An alternative is to dual Xzar to a cleric after giving him a tome, but I still prefer to use Viconia

rabidbooch

my party is not 100% evil but i'm still having a blast playing it i can take pretty much anything that come's my way including drizzt without cheap tactics
my party is:
charname : human blackguard NE maintank
Dorn offtank
coran on trap duty using a bow
Viconia main heal
branwen off heal crow control
Edwin best mage

DeathMachineMiyagi

crawlkill said:

You can actually run a high-reputation all-evil party and not risk your buddies leaving. They'll only quit if your rep goes above 18, but if it momentarily should, you can just kick out Viconia or Dorn and then reinvite them; your rep will go from 19 to 20 when they go, then from 20 back down to 18 when they rejoin.

You can, but I've never really considered that an evil playthrough given how the game responds to alignment (i.e. it doesn't respond very much at all).

In the BG series, 98% of the time reputation is what determines whether you're good or evil in practice. It determines whether you get the 'good' Bhaalspawn powers or the 'bad' Bhaalspawn powers. It determines whether the world treats you as a hero or a menace.

In short, a proper evil playthrough should always be played with a low reputation. 6 is the ideal for me.

colonel_burger

I've got both (vicky and dualed xzar). I only just discovered how ridiculously awesome the level 1 cleric spell "command" is in bg1. With 2 cleric/3 mage classes in my party the opposition is constantly stunned and slept, which makes excellent dorn/Monty/CHARNAME bait.