[BG2 adding allies] Bodhi's encounter Spoiler

Zymran86

If you play Baldur's Gate 2 with evil alignment, you will encounter Drizzt and his allies after the Underdark (you will encounter them anyway but...), if you played by your alignment rules you probably killed him in BG 1 aswell, if you had his equipment stored in your inventory he will even recognize you and threaten you, and hes a NoNo for an alliance atleast for evil characters in my opinion, that adds -1 ally to your party when fighting Bodhi.

Order of the Radiant Heart is a No aswell , theyre paladins and i dont think that an evil bhaalspawn would go there to ask them for help...

The Shadow thieves are most likely dead aswell (Since you would probably side with Bodhi in killing them, but this is abit optional, since in shadowthief vs Bodhi -noone of them is really good-aligned)

I was wondering if the developers maybe could add some additional allies for evil aligned or Neutral aligned with a tendency towards more shady alliance's? Maybe the Church of Talos could help? or some other band of evil adventures you encounter, maybe Zhentarim perhaps?

What's your opinion about this?
The fight is pretty hard to do all by yourself without allies..

ElectricMonk

This is one of quite a few cases where options are limited to evil characters, although I think there are even less options for neutral characters (I think the idea was that they could just choose a balance of good and evil choices, but this doesn't always seem to be the same thing as neutrality). I agree that there should be some choices for evil characters, and neutral ones as well (and not just here, but throughout other parts of the game as well for RP purposes as far as neutral goes). I believe an argument made against evil characters needing more choices that could be made is that an evil child of bhaal would go to these people for help as he/she would be self-serving, and that they could agree to help due to bodhi being a larger, more evil threat at the time. I think these are just sort of arguments that take the story elements devised for a good character, and just rationalize them for an evil character.

So, to recap, I would like to see some different choices for allies, as long as you're limited to being assisted by only a certain number of or certainly aligned allies so as to not make the battle easier due to allowing people to get MORE assistance.

Zymran86

"So, to recap, I would like to see some different choices for allies, as long as you're limited to being assisted by only a certain number of or certainly aligned allies so as to not make the battle easier due to allowing people to get MORE assistance."

@jaysl659 i agree with you, it should be limited to 3 groups (3 additional allies) in the final fight, i didnt clarify that in my post but that was what my intention was

Winthal

I think it makes perfect sense for a good natured character to make allies and receive help whereas an evil character gets to go it alone more often, you reap what you sow.. right? Or perhaps (in the eyes of an evil character) "Who needs em'?"

An evil version of Drizzt's party coming to your aid would probably feel a bit forced:

Artemis: "Ho there, you look mighty evil, need something from me and my unscrupulous gang?"

Evil Protagonist: "Yes, my reputation is -2 and I'm wearing a jacket sown from the skins of hapless beggars, I could use your aid in defeating some vampire chicks."

Artemis: "Say no more, us evil types have to stick together, I only ask that you give me the name of your tailor..."

Evil Protagonist: "Sure thing, a note of warning though, he's *really* stingy with the ingredients, I hope you like scavenger hunts..."

Zymran86

@Winthal Evil characters have alliances aswell, take a look at some of the most powerful organizations in forgotten realms, Zentharim, Chruch of Bane etc, the only thing that doesnt have any structured relationship with anything is probably the church of Cyric at the current year, but this changed in 4th edition and they actually at 1479 have a major government position in Amn, even Sarevok had a few fanatics henchemen at the end, Tazok, Angelo, Semaj, Winski Preroate.

Hah, that interaction you came up with would be a great addition to the game.
Abit forced, well.. it doesnt have to be Artemis, its alot of evil adventure groups out there who arent famous but powerful, they usually stick to the shadows for obvious reasons.
A story writer can come up with something good.
An example might be that Irenicus and Bodhi might have made more enemys than the ones that are shown during the campaign, they might have refused to pay some evil mercenarys after enlisting them to rob the hermit Portalbendarwinden and now they want revenge on Bodhi and him.

Evil aint equal to being stupid, just that the motives arent the same as a good aligned and the end goals are diffrent.
I think this was a great thing in Baldurs Gate that they merged the story's, for example: the Zhentarim wants the Iron Throne in Baldur's Gate to be destroyed becuse they falsely use their name, and the Harpers wants to destroy them becuse theyre the cause behind the iron shortage.
And being a powerful bhaalspawn on a trip to godhood would be quite an ally in any evil adventure groups eyes.

lansounet

Even if you sided with Bohdi, with high enough CHR you can convince High Prelate Wessalen to help you with that encounter; no matter who initiates dialog, PC stats are checked.

Human influence and all that~

Zymran86

@lansounet thanks for the info, i didnt know that.

I dont know Iansounet, but it feels kind of strange anyway to go to a paladin asking for help if your PC is evil.

lansounet

You could also be neutral and/or not like the Shadow Thieves organization (from meeting them in BG1, you know how that went) and you're not supposed to know she is [leader of] a vampire [guild] I think when you join her.

Zymran86

@lansounet
I take it you played the Bodhi side of that chapter? how was the rewards, and what kind of quests was it? same as Shadow thiefs? i never tryed it so thats why im asking might give it a try later..

kamuizin

The point is evil characters, as always, have to be content with the crumbs of good characters.

But for other side to overcome this, no addition is needed, just some changes (and extend some existing contents normally is better than add news that need setting and evaluation to not screw the game).

The evil options that can be done extending the NPCs that are already in the game just need more than a humble request for help (compensation maybe XD)

These are suggestions only, but worth to take a look, to both options the main char need to pay or convince in a fashionable way those NPCs that kill Bodhi can be profitable/advantageous for them:

1° Option -> Firkraag - Evil characters normally don't have reason to fight him, just double-cross the garren windspear, take the land title and everyone that's evil leave happy (but add a better reward than that shit cloak, otherwise evil character WILL have a reason to attack him).

So, he's a dragon, i'm a somehow rich adventurer on the end of my SoA game, with lots of magical itens in the bag of holding and gold in the purse. He's a Dragon... dragon... hoard... dragon... greed... i believe ppl get the point.
(of course if he help he will not be a red dragon inside bodhi's lair, but will use his human form).


2° Option -> Shade Lord - Never understand that guy, i kill a dragon at 1 door of distance from him and he says "bravado, of course". If i'm evil i don't give a shit to the village, could even negotiate with the shade lord, he would keep a low profile for a time and i could get my reward (that's if the main char DON'T free mazzy from the cell, otherwise the shadow lord will still need a consort).

I know, i know, we can extort the mayor already, this would be a 2° evil option in the same quest, but i say, why not? I'm Strong, i doubt he can't sense the bhaal essence on the main char, i killed his "pretty wyrm", i don't give a f*** to the village and he still has his consort, what he has to lose?

Shadow Thieve help option is neutral enough, so both good and evil character's if sided with the ST in the act 3 shoud call for their help.

Zymran86

@kamuizin "2° Option -> Shade Lord - Never understand that guy, i kill a dragon at 1 door of distance from him and he says "bravado, of course". If i'm evil i don't give a shit about the village" lol

Yeah, it might be cool to get help from firkraag, but he might be too powerful? ^_-
Thats why i tought it would be quite cool to add some new villains into the bodhi-drama

Tanthalas

I don't know if a human form Firkraag would be too powerful.

kamuizin

@Tanthalas, that's the point, the help must not be powerfull, just helpfull, will be a mage (that probally will give no shit to avoid friendly fire damage, what will be fun too). It's not a distinguished name as drizzt do'urden, but will do.

Edit: by the way, no evil help would fight until the end, and when the evil help reach a "near death" status they should just leave the battle with some funny banters if possible.

Firkraag - "I just remembered of an appointment now, Sorry children. By the way no refunds on our contract.
Shade Lord - could even turn on main char "This is not worth final death, and i need a new vessel now". After all everything there will be undead, except a big bad dragon and the main char party.

Zymran86

@Tanthalas "You didnt count on picking a fight with an ally of a red dragon!" xD and "The dark lord Bane of "Bandhold"?" remember what game you "heard"/read these lines in?

Winthal

@Zymran86 Yep, I realize evil characters have alliances as well, but they won't exactly be based on friendship or the greater good (more like using each other to achieve personal goals), so receiving a "favor" as an evil character simply won't happen unless the group that comes to your aid has their own interest in seeing the vampires slain. Not saying a good story couldn't be written with that in mind tho

Zymran86

@winthal moar storys like this please.. xD
Artemis: "Ho there, you look mighty evil, need something from me and my unscrupulous gang?"

Evil Protagonist: "Yes, my reputation is -2 and I'm wearing a jacket sown from the skins of hapless beggars, I could use your aid in defeating some vampire chicks."

Artemis: "Say no more, us evil types have to stick together, I only ask that you give me the name of your tailor..."

Evil Protagonist: "Sure thing, a note of warning though, he's *really* stingy with the ingredients, I hope you like scavenger hunts..."

Winthal

@Zymran86 I'm glad you like it :P I wrote something similar out of boredom in this thread --> Gnoll stronghold