Elf Kensai?

Locksley

I am just curious as to what other people think. I've done a fair bit of research (and max leveled a human kensai in BG2, which was great), but I have not seen too many opinions out there on the elf race for playing a kensai.

Elves get those bonuses to long swords, as well as the extra point to Dexterity that gives a bonus to Armor Class. However, one less point in Constitution concerns me, as well as the possibility of a considerably less max HP in the endgame.

What is your guys' take on this?

(I do not plan to multi class. Prefer going straight-up kensai.)

Locksley

Also, does someone know for a fact that the Elf's bonus to long swords actually applies to all one-handed swords? (I've read elsewhere that this is indeed the case, but not sure if it still holds true for EE.)

Thanks.

reedmilfam

Elf would be a very good Kensai, but I'd worry about the CON reduction. Kensai take a pounding, but deliver lots of damage. Half orc Kensai is brutal.

Locksley

Yeah, I've read comments left and right saying the Half-Orc kensai is a good fit based on his bonuses to Strength and Constitution. Absolutely.

I was trying not to go with the obvious pick this time around... plus, I just don't like the look of the Half-Orc for a kensai.

I love the stat bonuses to Armor Class and long swords that the Elf receives. Also his resistance to charm and magic right out of the gate is pretty good (not that it is needed much until later on, and magic items and armor can make easily make for that later in the game.).

So is the -1 constitution too much of a deterrent for a kensai, particularly later on in the game? The beginning and middle progression don't concern me as much, so long as the end result works.

(A human kensai maxed out can be amazingly strong. Armed with Celestrial Fury, he would stun almost any enemy and shred it before it could land a single blow or cast too many spells, and with Hindo's Doom +4 in the off hand he was protected from all death magic.)

tommy

i dont think this should be in the "bug" section

Locksley

Is this the "bug" section? I thought it was "general."

Locksley

You are right. It is the "general" subsection under "Bugs." I did not notice this (kinda hard to distinguish on the left panel). My apologies.

(Moved it to where it should be.)

Mungri

Elves are a poor choice for kensais. They lose hp and the 19 dex doesn't give you -1 AC (after 18 dex, you need 21 for the next -1 AC).

Half Orc would be much much better for 19 str and con.

TJ_Hooker

@Locksley the bonus elves get to dexterity doesn't actually result in a bonus to AC. Unless you're taking taking him all the way through BG1 and 2 and giving him the 2 dexterity increases to get him to 21 DEX.

Locksley

Hmm, thanks for those insights, guys.

So what you are saying is that the AC bonus (even later in the game) isn't worth the sacrifice to constitution or the bonus to long swords. Is that correct?

Mungri

Unless you want to playthrough BG1 twice and get two con and dex tomes, or use shadowkeeper to get 21 dex / 19 con then half orc is better.

Khrondor

Locksley said:

Hmm, thanks for those insights, guys.

So what you are saying is that the AC bonus (even later in the game) isn't worth it for a kensai. Is that correct?

Correct, Half-Orc for straight Kensai, or Human if you plan to Dual Class later. I dont see any other races that would come close to those two.

Locksley

Mungri said:

Unless you want to playthrough BG1 twice and get two con and dex tomes, or use shadowkeeper to get 21 dex / 19 con then half orc is better.

How about the bonus to long swords that Elves receive?

Also, what does 19 strength grant you that 18 strength does not? I do not see much of a difference there.

Mungri

You get enough to hit bonuses with Kensais that the +1 from elves will make very little difference. Even a human kensai starting with 18 str won't struggle to hit things. Without armor however you will want as much HP as you can get, also for a kensai in BG1, its very advisable to use single weapon style for the -2 AC. Elf bonuses are ok, but for a straight melee fighter half orcs are much better for extra HP and damage.

With the str tome and 20 str, a half orc will gain +2 damage with any weapon over anyone else with a tomed 19 str.

The +1 dex on elves is much better suited to thieves and archers, and the weapon bonuses to multiclass fighters. For any single class fighter, Id only make a half orc.

TJ_Hooker

/index.php?title=Baldur%27s_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Strength

Locksley said:

Mungri said:

Unless you want to playthrough BG1 twice and get two con and dex tomes, or use shadowkeeper to get 21 dex / 19 con then half orc is better.

How about the bonus to long swords that Elves receive?

Also, what does 19 strength grant you that 18 strength does not? I do not see much of a difference there.

Well if you have the patience to roll until you get 18/00 strength (and a high stat total) then 19 str only gets you +1 to damage. But that can be pretty tough, so you may settle for a lesser exceptional strength score, so 19 str would be a bigger difference. So it either saves you a lot of time in rolling or grants a significant bonus. See here for more info on the bonuses:
http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Strength

Krypteia

An elf Kensai would be sub-optimal in comparison to the Half-Orc or Human Kensai, but it would still be viable. You would lose -1 hp per level in comaprison to a human Kensai, but otherwise be the same in terms of AC and damage dealt - except for when you are using longswords, where your chances would be slightly better (though again, over the course of the whole game, such a bonus is negligible). Your damage would be somewhat lower than the Half-Orc with maxed out strength though, it must be said.

I also like the idea from a role-playing perspective: elves are meant to be dextrous and skilled fighters who are known for dual-wielding, and a Kensai speaks to that. With their extended lifespan, an elf would have far longer to master his or her chosen weapons and, consequently, be an extremely dangerous opponent.

I don't think it's a terrible idea, it'd still be playable, but being aware that it won't be the bestest Kensai it could ever be is nice.

Locksley

Thanks, all. This helps.

For now, I'm rolling with a Human kensai, an Elven archer, and a Half-Orc wizard slayer in my multiplayer game.

sandmanCCL

Dwarves are eventually the best at it. There are no significant bonuses beyond 18 dexterity and the difference between 19 and 20 strength is minimal.

Locksley

sandmanCCL said:

Dwarves are eventually the best at it. There are no significant bonuses beyond 18 dexterity and the difference between 19 and 20 strength is minimal.

Interesting. So then what makes the Dwarf the (eventual) best for kensai?

UnknownQuantity

Human Kensei is the best because it can dual class Elf Kensei is ok, but I dont' think you get an ac bonus for dexterity 19. You get one for dexterity 20 I believe.

sandmanCCL

@Locksley:

Dwarf constution-based saving throws. Assuming you max out each physical stat with your Kensai, you'll have the same AC at 18 dexterity as a halfling or elf can at 20. They will have better ranged thac0 but who cares, they can't equip any ranged weapons that actually use dexterity to determine attack bonus. Saga-wide, there is something to be said about going elf or halfling because using the Machine of Lum the Mad, you could get to 21 dexterity and therefore gain an extra AC.

You'll have one less strength than a half-orc but the difference between 19 and 20 strength is a whole +1 damage.

You'll have the same constitution as a half-orc, meaning regenerating HP, tons of life to begin with, and the real kicker: +5 to spells/wands/death saving throws.

Locksley

@sandmanCCL

Thanks for those insights. I never really considered that about the Dwarf (i.e. the +5 to spells/wands/death saving throws.)

Of course, with many different magical items (that any race can use, saga-wide), that +5 bonus essentially becomes null and void. For instance, with Hindo's Hand +4 (if specializing in Katanas), you gain outright immunity to all death spells.

sandmanCCL

The saves vs. death aren't all that important later on because of the spell Death Ward, but it's hard to argue against +5 saves vs. spells at any point in the saga.

Locksley

sandmanCCL said:

The saves vs. death aren't all that important later on because of the spell Death Ward, but it's hard to argue against +5 saves vs. spells at any point in the saga.

I would tend to agree in the case of a dual classed Kensai/Mage. But I am looking for a pure kensai that can also go "lone wolf," if desired.

I am just trying to consider every possible factor in that regard. I think I'd rather go with the Half-Orc for the strength and constitution bonuses, and utilize some of the more powerful magical items that are available later. That's just me, though.

reedmilfam

Blah. The Half Orc does a little better than the elf, but not breaking-ly. Yes, another HP per level is nice, but your main job is to wipe out enemies before they wipe you out. Elven Kensai would be just fine.

The 19 DEX doesn't really help you, but an 18/xx, 19, 17 setup is not gimped and is able to succeed.

Character that you want to play: First
Optimizing the character you chose: Second

toanwrath

Dwarf Kensai....I remember trying Kagain this way in the NPC Level 1 mod (I think that's the name?) that lets you give kits to the NPCs. I didn't like how he turned out, but I suppose that is due to the shit dex and moderate strength then, eh?

Aegir_Fellwood

Hmm maybe just for fun I should try a gnome or halfling kensai. Are there any good short swords in BGEE?

Locksley

reedmilfam said:

Character that you want to play: First
Optimizing the character you chose: Second

Agreed. This is my third time playing through as a kensai. First time I went through I went with exactly what I wanted - a straightforward, Human kensai.

toanwrath

I started my Dwarf Kensai. I finally decided on a power-gamey build, I got Branwen and Safana in order to get the Constitution tome and Drizzt's swords very early on. Although my AC isn't as good as Kivan's -2 (with Ankheg plate), I am still very powerful. Also, lots of chunks.

toanwrath

@Aegir_Fellwood
Unless BG:EE changed this from the original, you can get a +2 short sword fairly early on (Southwest of Beregost), and in the final chapter of the game there is a +3 short sowrd (+1 short swords are lying around everywhere). As far as I know, there are no NEW short swords. Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninja-to is one of the most supreme categories now in terms of good gear.

Aegir_Fellwood

@toanwrath Thanks