@GoodSteve Generally, giving Kagain the Dexterity gauntlets makes him a savage tank--his one flaw is AC and a simple early item fixes that. It is hard to make up those HPs for high Dex characters. I agree that AC is very important for a tank, but HPs (which are harder to get when such a simple Dex item exists) are also important.
I wasn't speaking about Kagains low AC specifically but yes it can be offset with the guantlets of Dex. Sadly you only get 1 pair and to put them on a character who can wear heavy armors and use a shield might not always be the best choice... but maybe it is, depends on your play style. Kagains downside is that he still only has 16 strength and is outshone in the damage dealing dpartment by most other tanks. Also, being Lawful Evil he isn't really an option for a good playthrough with a high rep score.
Shar-Teel is proficient in dual-wielding now, with longswords and daggers. They didn't design her to be a tank. Now that it's not just "large swords," and with the addition of slapping in dual-wield, it makes more sense to turn her into a ginsu knife than to tank with sword and board.
She really was designed to dual-class into thief.
She can still easily be used as a tank with sword and board though. That's like saying you can't use greatswords with Minsc because he starts with dual-wield prof.
First of all, all rangers get the dual-wield for free, but they don't have to use it. And again, it's a matter of AC AND HPs for me. She may have great AC with a shield, but HP is also very helpful and some people want tanks with at least +1hp/level. I personally don't mind (one of my tanks is Dorn with 14 Con and I hoarded the Tome for myself), but some people want that bonus HP.
For tanks with only starting gear, Khalid's surprisingly solid. He gets -2 AC from Dex and +3 HP/level from Con, which is well balanced. His low-ish Strength can be offset by the ability to get mastery in weapons, which bumps his THAC0 nicely.
For pure "soak" tanks (those who will get hit, but have the HP to really take a hit) then Kagain is the man. Low Dex (fixable with gauntlets of dex) means less when you've got crazy HP and naturally friggin' regenerate.
That said, I often have a PC tank, either Paladin, Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Cleric. Any of these with maxed Dex and Con with outtank most NPCs, especially with cleric or mage buffs to add to the fun.
Viconia > Kagain > Charname. Viconia because my Charname paladin don´t have Dex. (Just 18con). Kagain if i needed the HP too, not just the AC Charname when possible.
But now with some magic items my Charname can start tanking. With a -2 AC. (But viconia have -5 so she is kind of never get hit or die in 1 hit).
Thanks gang. Good to know I'm not missing someone obvious. I've currently got Branwen and Kivan taking the heat, with my PC and Minsc dealing the damage. Imoen and Neera hang back.
It's working out OK. The only problem with sending Kivan up front, is I *love* what he can do with a bow.
PC Tank(fighter), which will be dualed to Cleric in BG2 or maybe imported earlier as I need him to be only 7 for the fighter ApR-boost, and he does have proper stats :P [checked at least in my current vanilla BG2 install and you can still boost to GM, even if you spent only 3-4 points prior to the Dual-class] Ajantis being the 2nd, with the Dex gauntlets he is surprisingly good and sturdy.
Though with all the changes done to BG:EE a lot of stuff becomes a lil bit too easy; ie mine is currently a berserker-kit, which is against some encounters the enabled win-mode. Ankheg armor can be boosted further with magical protection and this alone makes it a very solid armor, which you can get after like 10-15 minutes + a 2nd as killing 1 ankheg isn't that hard neither.
And I agree with several postings above; in BG1 you don't really need a tank but it makes things easier...SoA got some 'special' enemies and modded or changed being harder you'll need at least 1. (BTL; need to play this! and there is one mod, which changes several encounter drastically)
I don't really see other npc's giving them much competition, without using lots of buffs and items (which i usually want for myself) or taking Monty's rogue abilities away (heavy armor).
Tanks? I have no tanks ahahahahaha. Most of the time my party is full of squishy wizards and maybe a thief or two. Usually I just like, tank with Xan. Yeah, I know that sounds like a totally horrible idea but hear me out. I just like, buff him up with a bunch of spells until nothing can hit him worth shit then send him in there with his Moonblade to do some serious damage. Works pretty well against most enemies.
I don't really see other npc's giving them much competition, without using lots of buffs and items (which i usually want for myself) or taking Monty's rogue abilities away (heavy armor).
Give the Strength gauntlets to Khalid and you can send Ajantis back to Keldorn's robes at the radiant hearth keep.
Kagain is the king of tank, accessible early on, and has the unholy ability to slowly metabolise his eternally high blood-alcohol content into health potions.
Viccy is probably the second best tank; she's let down by her Con, though it's not in the penalty-zone, and you can give her the Claw without losing out on anything - unlike Kagain - for an even lower AC. Her 25% stun mace is also an awesome tank weapon, whilst Command buys time to do whatever it is you were going to do.
For the forces of light and good, I actually prefer Yeslick, with dexty hands. He doesn't regenerate, and he's a few fewer points of Con than Kagain, but he's also a prime candidate for Big Fists + Dex Gloves, and can still bust out with the healing and support spells like a boss. And like Viccy, "Power Word: Lay There And Take It" all by itself is a campaign breaker disguised as a level 1 spell.
I'm curious when some of you people first began referring to your Fighters as "tanks". Was it in 1998 when Baldur's Gate was released or was it sometime after 2004 when World of Warcraft was released?
I first heard about it several years before World of Warcraft, around the time of Diablo II, and I guess by this point I've thought that why the hell not, it's a pretty fitting term.
Shar-teel. So what if her Con is weak? She's designed to hit hard and get hit rarely. She survives more fights than Kagain for example, who's got the highest Con, but a very low dex. Extra HPs don't help if he gets hit often.
@Chow Using the MMO terms for classic roleplaying games is really a misnomer and detracts from the roleplaying aspects, as well (a separate issue). If my Fighter pursues grandmastery in bows would he still be considered a "tank"? For that matter, what is a Thief's role in a party? Is he really a "DPS"? The only time a Thief might outdamage any other member of the party is if she is in backstab position and attacking an enemy who is vulnerable to backstab (not undead, for example). Again, DPS being another misnomer, since the high damage is good for one attack (and then running for cover), rather than being a consistently high output over time like the aforementioned Fighter, so DPA would more accurately reflect the burst damage.
The root of the problem is that MMOs try to emulate classical roleplaying games, but are confined by the system and technology which make it easier to focus more on the combat elements than anything else and (especially due to the online aspect) try to achieve a democratic, but often unrealistic, "balance" in classes. In traditional roleplaying games the roles are much more flexible, especially due to powerful and "imbalanced" spells, items, and potions. Sometimes, the best tank is a Mage with a Wand of Summoning, or a Thief with Evasion while the Mage hurls fireballs, or a Cleric with Sanctuary blocking a door... the very imbalanced nature of the game allows for creative and interesting solutions.
Well, I don't use them in a day-to-day basis, but since someone made a thread about it and asked who we used as our "tanks", and I understood what the term meant, I figured I'd use it as it is instead of making any issue about it.
Yes, it does distract from the roleplaying aspect, which is why I don't use it on the tabletop, but this is a computer game, and even one as complicated as Baldur's Gate isn't really all that roleplayingy.
The tank is basically the one character who soaks all the damage, not the heavy-hitter or archer or whatnot. Shar-Teel doesn't make one for too well because of her constitution, and Kivan is typically in the back.
Kagain is pretty much objectively the best tank in the game, even counting the player character: even the PC can't have 20 in constitution at the start (only by using the tome, which doesn't count because it could give Kagain a score of 21, which is even more), which not only gives him more hit points than anyone else, but also guarantees that he's at full health whenever you rest or even switch areas.
Actually the PC can be better than Kaigan if he is a HO/Dwarf Barbarian. Yes, he will have 20 CON at most while Kaigan could still get to 21, but the barbarian HD is d12 while Kaigan, being a fighter, has d10. So in the end a HO/Dwarf Barbarian could potentially have more HPs than Kaigan. Add to that a barbarian rage and... you get the idea. Finally, at higher levels Barbarians gain some damage resistance.
Kagain would still be able to wear better armor though.
I think Kagain is unquestionably the best tank when given enchanted items. There is a new "cursed" belt that sets STR to 19 but INT to 6. That means that with the Gauntlets of Dex Kagain's statline would be 19/18/20/6/11/8. That's simply fearsome. When the man says he needs an ale, you had better have a damned cold one on hand if you know what's good for you.
You are depending on two items to make Kagain the best tank. The PC could roll those stats at creation and let someone else use those items.
So yeah, PC is potentially the best tank in the game. And Kagain is potentially the best NPC tank.
Currently Kagain (with the dex gloves of course!;)) is my "main" frontliner/tank,whatever you preffer, with Dorn on hes side and Viconia as a distant 3rd For some odd reason i've almost always used Khalid as my frontliner when playing goodish side partys with Minsc(& Boo) taking Dorns role so to speak.
Tanks? I have no tanks ahahahahaha. Most of the time my party is full of squishy wizards and maybe a thief or two. Usually I just like, tank with Xan. Yeah, I know that sounds like a totally horrible idea but hear me out. I just like, buff him up with a bunch of spells until nothing can hit him worth shit then send him in there with his Moonblade to do some serious damage. Works pretty well against most enemies.
You are depending on two items to make Kagain the best tank. The PC could roll those stats at creation and let someone else use those items.
He can't roll up the 20 constitution.
He can roll a 19, and with a tome make it 20. I already explained that a Barbarian with a d12 HD would potentially have more HPs than Kagain even at 21 CON.
In the end, you either use a tome on your PC or 2 excellent items on Kagain. Then again, you could do both and have 2 monster tanks!
I like using my PC as a tank, if only so I can lead the party formation and have everybody who randomly approaches the party talk to her instead of whatever meatshield happens to be in front. My current Evil playthrough is a Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric to fill the role. Stupefier and a good large shield and armor makes for some nice tanking, especially when you can spit out Larloch's Minor Drains here and there.
My current good playthrough, on the other hand, is a Fighter/Mage, so I was forced by necessity to let someone else take point for the first segments of the game. I alternated Jaheira and Khalid depending on their hit points, and both make serviceable tanks. Once I got the gaunlets of dex though, it ended up being more Jaheira on point and Khalid firing arrows from the back.
@Kaigen, there is a party formation button that can solve the problem you're talking about - it's a basic six-man rectangle, but it puts the silver "leader dot" toward the back instead of in first position.
@Kaigen, there is a party formation button that can solve the problem you're talking about - it's a basic six-man rectangle, but it puts the silver "leader dot" toward the back instead of in first position.
I know, I use those formations frequently my main is low on HP. I just get irrationally irritated by the fact that this means that all those NPCs that approach the party to talk end up talking to someone else when the leader is in the back of the formation.
Speaking of formations, I'm so used to playing BG2 (and moving through the generally cramped environments of that game) that it took me hours to realize that I could explore the outdoor areas much faster if I used the spread out wedge formations, and that my party members would have an easier time pathfinding to their targets from that loose formation.
Comments
Yes!! I believe the belt is part of Rasaad's quest, but I don't know when I will actually get his quest...
For pure "soak" tanks (those who will get hit, but have the HP to really take a hit) then Kagain is the man. Low Dex (fixable with gauntlets of dex) means less when you've got crazy HP and naturally friggin' regenerate.
That said, I often have a PC tank, either Paladin, Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Cleric. Any of these with maxed Dex and Con with outtank most NPCs, especially with cleric or mage buffs to add to the fun.
But now with some magic items my Charname can start tanking. With a -2 AC. (But viconia have -5 so she is kind of never get hit or die in 1 hit).
It's working out OK. The only problem with sending Kivan up front, is I *love* what he can do with a bow.
Ajantis being the 2nd, with the Dex gauntlets he is surprisingly good and sturdy.
Though with all the changes done to BG:EE a lot of stuff becomes a lil bit too easy; ie mine is currently a berserker-kit, which is against some encounters the enabled win-mode. Ankheg armor can be boosted further with magical protection and this alone makes it a very solid armor, which you can get after like 10-15 minutes + a 2nd as killing 1 ankheg isn't that hard neither.
And I agree with several postings above; in BG1 you don't really need a tank but it makes things easier...SoA got some 'special' enemies and modded or changed being harder you'll need at least 1. (BTL; need to play this! and there is one mod, which changes several encounter drastically)
Evil/Neutral: Kagain
I don't really see other npc's giving them much competition, without using lots of buffs and items (which i usually want for myself) or taking Monty's rogue abilities away (heavy armor).
That being said, I tend to use Charname as my tank, it's just more funt o be in the thick of things
Viccy is probably the second best tank; she's let down by her Con, though it's not in the penalty-zone, and you can give her the Claw without losing out on anything - unlike Kagain - for an even lower AC. Her 25% stun mace is also an awesome tank weapon, whilst Command buys time to do whatever it is you were going to do.
For the forces of light and good, I actually prefer Yeslick, with dexty hands. He doesn't regenerate, and he's a few fewer points of Con than Kagain, but he's also a prime candidate for Big Fists + Dex Gloves, and can still bust out with the healing and support spells like a boss. And like Viccy, "Power Word: Lay There And Take It" all by itself is a campaign breaker disguised as a level 1 spell.
She's designed to hit hard and get hit rarely. She survives more fights than Kagain for example, who's got the highest Con, but a very low dex. Extra HPs don't help if he gets hit often.
The root of the problem is that MMOs try to emulate classical roleplaying games, but are confined by the system and technology which make it easier to focus more on the combat elements than anything else and (especially due to the online aspect) try to achieve a democratic, but often unrealistic, "balance" in classes. In traditional roleplaying games the roles are much more flexible, especially due to powerful and "imbalanced" spells, items, and potions. Sometimes, the best tank is a Mage with a Wand of Summoning, or a Thief with Evasion while the Mage hurls fireballs, or a Cleric with Sanctuary blocking a door... the very imbalanced nature of the game allows for creative and interesting solutions.
Yes, it does distract from the roleplaying aspect, which is why I don't use it on the tabletop, but this is a computer game, and even one as complicated as Baldur's Gate isn't really all that roleplayingy.
Kagain would still be able to wear better armor though.
So yeah, PC is potentially the best tank in the game. And Kagain is potentially the best NPC tank.
For some odd reason i've almost always used Khalid as my frontliner when playing goodish side partys with Minsc(& Boo) taking Dorns role so to speak.
In the end, you either use a tome on your PC or 2 excellent items on Kagain. Then again, you could do both and have 2 monster tanks!
My current good playthrough, on the other hand, is a Fighter/Mage, so I was forced by necessity to let someone else take point for the first segments of the game. I alternated Jaheira and Khalid depending on their hit points, and both make serviceable tanks. Once I got the gaunlets of dex though, it ended up being more Jaheira on point and Khalid firing arrows from the back.
Speaking of formations, I'm so used to playing BG2 (and moving through the generally cramped environments of that game) that it took me hours to realize that I could explore the outdoor areas much faster if I used the spread out wedge formations, and that my party members would have an easier time pathfinding to their targets from that loose formation.