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Of being evil to Anomen Delryn in the Temple of Amanuator (SPOILS)

I needed to sub in a cleric while Viconia was busy, so my evil party grabbed Annoying Delryn for a little.

As things worked out, my meanie CHARNAME decided to boot Anomen Dorkryn in the word search puzzle room while they stood separated by the letters.

That's when Smarty Pants Delryn decided to wander across the board to have a word with CHARNAME. Needless to say, he ended up crispy-crittered around the 'B'. Korgan was very entertained. Cernd, not so much.

Muahaha.
borntodieRaduzielContemplative_HamsterBorekOrlonKronsteenbob_vengGreenWarlock

Comments

  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Funny how viewpoints differ. I've never liked any of the evil party members in either game, save for Sarevok, and only for the prospect of turning him good, and not for the selfish reasons Viconia has.

    Edwin is an obnoxious braggart with zero sympathetic qualities.
    Viconia is a manipulative b-word.
    Korgan is more tolerable than the above, but he's still pretty damn amoral. Having some basic decency absolutely does not absolve him.
    ThacoBellborntodieOrlonKronsteenRik_Kirtaniya
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Viconia isn't just manipulative, she is downright emotionally abusive and a pathological liar. She actually reminds a LOT of a previous abusive relationship that I was in previously.
    borntodie
  • ANOFANOF Member Posts: 70
    edited August 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    Viconia isn't just manipulative, she is downright emotionally abusive and a pathological liar.

    All true, but that just makes it that much more rewarding when you're able to get her to genuinely change.
    Durmir46OrlonKronsteen
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 199
    hehe, all totally subjective of course
    ThacoBell said:

    She actually reminds a LOT of a previous abusive relationship that I was in previously.

    Sorry to hear that, man.

    Back on topic: it's not nearly as creative, but last time I hired Anomen it was to test the sewers beneath the Copper Coronet for traps. There's now a statue there, no idea why. o:)
    BorekOrlonKronsteenbutteredsoul
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    edited August 2018

    Funny how viewpoints differ. I've never liked any of the evil party members in either game, save for Sarevok, and only for the prospect of turning him good, and not for the selfish reasons Viconia has.

    Edwin is an obnoxious braggart with zero sympathetic qualities.
    Viconia is a manipulative b-word.
    Korgan is more tolerable than the above, but he's still pretty damn amoral. Having some basic decency absolutely does not absolve him.


    But they treat charname well IMO.

    They don't lecture charname, they don't cause problems, they don't go on and on about their feelings.
    OK, so Edwin moans about being a woman for a while, but doesn't go on and on about his insecurities and all that angsty stuff.

    Anomen, Aerie, Keldorn, Nalia, Valygar, Jaheira, Mazzy, Minsc never shut up about what everything means to them, how their lives are affected. It's all woe is me.

    Seriously, do I care?
    Mage and Vampire to kill, soul to be recovered, destiny to fulfill, get with the program.

    My sisters dead and my dad's a drunk, my wife is screwing around, got no wings, got to marry a tosser and there are poor people, Harper's are meanies, Mum turned Dad into a zombie and didn't give me enough attention, carelessly lost my husband, lost my witch (held onto the bloody hamster though didn't you?)....it's never ending.


    And don't even get me started on the EE NPC....I'll be here all night.





    Contemplative_HamsterBorekborntodieGreenWarlock
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    There may be a direct correlation between someone's level of empathy and how much they like the good npcs.
    megamike15Contemplative_Hamster
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    it's strange as this seems to only really applies to bg 2. i mean some people say carth is whiny or kaiden/jacob is boring. but i've never seen a bioware party get as much disgust as half of the npcs in bg2.
  • ThacoBell said:

    There may be a direct correlation between someone's level of empathy and how much they like the good npcs.

    I have a nagging boss at work, and a bossy nag at home. Last thing I need one more when I am trying to enjoy myself.
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 110
    edited August 2018
    Thing is, it is hard to make a "good" NPC interesting as ultimately they represent what is culturally accepted IRL as "good". In other words, "good" people are supposed to be "normal", as per society standards. And normal is boring, at least in art media such as movies or video games.

    On the other hand, "evil" can become interesting, as long as evil NPCs are not mindlessly evil, but instead are evil because they have their own background. In the case of the fantastically written Viconia for instance, you can "change her background", effectively modifying her alignment. Edwin was educated in a completely different society where he would be closer to normal (hence good). Dorn has quite the heavy background as well. Korgan is just mindless, but quite funny, and while his background is not as exposed, you can easily imagine one, especially since there are often "glimpses of light" in his speeches.

    It is a bit like in real life: we have a general idea of good and evil based on the perception of what is normal and not. What is interesting is what is unusual, what differs from the norm. Hence evil NPCs are more interesting. However if you want to play evil as a mindless evil, you will have the same issues than in real life: there are reasons why normal is normal and good is celebrated. It may make for less interesting NPCs, but it makes for a coherent RP and gameplay in a world where society holds together on the basis of what is good, and evil NPCs, no matter how interesting, are detrimental to the society through its norms based on what is good.

    This issue is the same in most video games or movies, with the exception on those who present the micrcosm around the player with an "evil" norm (DK, Overlord, etc.). The only interesting characters are those we are prone to hate if transposed to real life, and the boring ones are those we would love in real life. Video gamed are a complicated medium...
    borntodieUnderstandMouseMagic
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited August 2018
    IIRC there were hints in the original code of a scrapped Korgan-Mazzy relationship and a resulting alignment change (to CN) for Korgan. A mod, I forget the name, tried to restore it. Anyone?
    borntodieThacoBell
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 199
    edited August 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    There may be a direct correlation between someone's level of empathy and how much they like the good npcs.

    Sorry, but there I have to disagree. This is about different viewpoints, not so much about empathy. We can both have a very clear understanding of a character and still differ in our feelings about them.

    @UnderstandMouseMagic
    Actually I would love to get you started on the BG1 characters, bring it on. ;) By the way I do like Mazzy for some reason, even though she is perhaps the most lecturing of the bunch.

    @Contemplative_Hamster Man I really want to see that Korgan-Mazzy action, that's sad! This will be the first mod I install if it exists.
    butteredsoul
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 199

    it's strange as this seems to only really applies to bg 2. i mean some people say carth is whiny or kaiden/jacob is boring. but i've never seen a bioware party get as much disgust as half of the npcs in bg2.

    If I came across as being disgusted, I definitely worded it too strong. The only characters I really dislike strongly are the new ones, especially Neera and Hexxat, mainly because they don't understand the word 'no' when I don't want them in my party.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    ThacoBell said:

    There may be a direct correlation between someone's level of empathy and how much they like the good npcs.

    Of course there is and....?

    Empathy is the cheapest emotion going. We are drowning in bloody empathy.
    But it's oh so selective.

    Holding things together, coping, hardworking, not causing problems for other people but at the same time unfulfilled, miserable, ill, unhappy....those people who hold the whole of society together get scoffed at and derided.

    Throw in the can, give up and cause a whole ton of problems for everybody else....OMG you're so bad if you don't empathise enough with the tossers.

    As a certain person is apt to say,
    "squeaky wheel gets the kick".

    A bit more empathy might not go amiss if it was directed at those who actually deserve it rather than those who demand it.

    Translated to BG.

    Viconia has lost everything yet she fights by your side and does her job.
    Edwin has lost his home, his country and is actively being hunted yet he fights by your side and does his job.
    Korgan has no family and no clan having watched them being murdered as a child yet he fights by your side and does his job.

    None of them eff off and leave you to sort out "their problems", (Jaheira, Keldorn, Nalia, Anomen I'm looking at you).
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited August 2018
    I’m not sure I get your point. Minsc is good, stays and does his job. So are Valygar and Aerie. Jan, neutral, also leaves for a while.

    It’s almost like you’re saying the ‘’evil’’ characters are the real ‘’good’’ ones because they stay with you and don’t leave for a while. They’re not. Edwin would throw you under the bus at the first moment if it meant he could gain more power (« Please don't disturb me while I'm plotting to overthrow you »). Viconia has no problem killing people she doesn’t like. Korgan is very much the definition of a murderhobo.

    The npcs leaving is just people who have problems they have to solve. It’s not related to their alignment, as far as I can see.
    ThacoBell
  • butteredsoulbutteredsoul Member Posts: 168
    edited August 2018
    My put downs of AD were from my CHARNAMEs POV. My favorite part of the BG series is the NPCs. It’s why I’ve only played IWD once. I play BG multiple times to run with all of the npcs. Right now it’s my first evil run in 18 years, so AD is dead and Cernd is appreciated but not listened to.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    edited August 2018
    Arctodus said:

    I’m not sure I get your point. Minsc is good, stays and does his job. So are Valygar and Aerie. Jan, neutral, also leaves for a while.

    It’s almost like you’re saying the ‘’evil’’ characters are the real ‘’good’’ ones because they stay with you and don’t leave for a while. They’re not. Edwin would throw you under the bus at the first moment if it meant he could gain more power (« Please don't disturb me while I'm plotting to overthrow you »). Viconia has no problem killing people she doesn’t like. Korgan is very much the definition of a murderhobo.

    The npcs leaving is just people who have problems they have to solve. It’s not related to their alignment, as far as I can see.

    Minsc will attack and kill Edwin. That's not doing his job.

    But I wasn't discussing whether NPC are good or evil, the post was in response to the suggestion that there is an expectation that empathy should be shown to those with problems that they complain about.

    But everybody has problems, that some complain about them and don't cope without pushing the problems onto others, shouldn't rule as to who gets empathy.

    But that's a lot harder to do. It's hard to "empathise" with somebody who does the job and appears confident yet needs empathy. Because it demonstrates the variability of what life can throw at you and it's fundamental unfairness and the hidden nightmares.

    People want to feel confident. It's easy to feel confident that your life is going to work out just fine and you have all the answers when you see a homeless begger. Not so easy to keep that confidence when it's somebody recognisibly on the same path as you and yet they still need your empathy.

    And yes I have gone a bit off on one because currently in RL, that is what is happening and it's going to end in tears.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    minsc wants to kill edwin because he was tasked to kill dynaheir. the person he is trying to protect.

    butteredsoulThacoBell
  • butteredsoulbutteredsoul Member Posts: 168
    Sorry to hear it @UnderstandMouseMagic. If your hunch is correct, I hope that those tears water personal growth and an indelible life lesson. What doesn’t kill us doesn’t necessarily make us stronger. What it does is give one the opportunity to become stronger. Whether that opportunity is taken is up to the person.
    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • butteredsoulbutteredsoul Member Posts: 168
    Minsc can be an alarmist but he’s not the sharpest sword on the rack.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    minsc wants to kill edwin because he was tasked to kill dynaheir. the person he is trying to protect.

    Should be past tense.
    She's dead.

    (OK, confession time, I don't like Minsc, you may have picked that up. B) Didn't like that Lenny(?) in the book "Of Mice And Men" either. Always felt sorry for the mouse)
    butteredsoul
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