Is the game really as trial & error as it feels?
Orrion
Member Posts: 4
Question: Is BG just, in general, a t&e game like most CRPGs that exist? It's a pretty simple question. I like insight into this sort of thing, so I like answers to this sort of thing. Most of all, though, I like discussion on it. Simple!
I don't need to give backstory on why I'm here, but I can simplify it and say "I wanted to troll people for revenge but then I realized the forums here are not the forums on Steam." I get constant, conflicting answers to my question about the game though, so here I am to know for [semi?] sure!
I don't need to give backstory on why I'm here, but I can simplify it and say "I wanted to troll people for revenge but then I realized the forums here are not the forums on Steam." I get constant, conflicting answers to my question about the game though, so here I am to know for [semi?] sure!
Post edited by Orrion on
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I still remember the first time I fought Tarnesh on the steps of the FAI. I reloaded at least ten times, and I almost gave up on the game in frustration, wondering how the developers could have possibly intended such an early encounter to be so difficult. I didn't know the solutions to make it easy - Remove Fear, use the guards, use archery and the wand instead of melee, don't reject Montaron's and Xzar's help, hold Charname back, etc.
Everything you learn is partly trial and error.
But BG has enough inconsistances/random chance to throw a curve ball frequently.
And that's one of the reasons the constant fixing and fiddling with the game pisses me off.
The smoother and more consistant the game becomes, the less it will engage.
Take pathfinding, jeez louise the endless complaints. But watching (or more frequently missing) one of the NPC's wandering off adds to the challenge.
It got me killed the other day.
Yes it shouldn't have happened.
Yes it renewed interest in reloading and playing again.
While the game can seem intimidating at first, you can beat it with a fairly basic mastery of the combat mechanics, and that has many more trials than errors. To truly master the game though, you must master the arcane arts, and that is something that continues to defeat me to this day (as I lack the patience for determined study). However, even a basic understanding can be acquired by paying attention and learning from your errors, to achieve sufficient intuition to truly enjoy the game (which is about my level!)
As you learn your way around the system you'll be able to make educated guesses more often.
I've just finished chapter four in my current play through and had a lot of fun using my stalker pcs ability to stealth to scout ahead and plan out how to face enemies. Often using invisibility potions to position my party they way I wanted and then starting combat with a series of backstab, wand attacks and other planned moves to seize the advantage.
Of course even the best planned strategies can fail depending on the way you opponent responds. So sometimes you have to try several times to get it right.
I agree with the above comments though, with the puzzles and encounters once you know how to beat them they become almost trivial if you use your meta knowledge.
Baldur's Gate is a game that can be beaten in many, MANY ways due to the class system and the variety of items at your disposal. This is not one of those games with witch you have one path, one method and you keep trying until you find THE solution.
Whether you decide to play ranged, up close, with or without magic, it's doable. Of course you'll get better if you focus on one specific strategy, but you could also have a jack-of-all-trades approach, do approximately a little bit of everything and prevail with few reloads if any.
The difficulty setting is also VERY contrasting, from no challenge at all to ridiculously difficult with the newest setting added by Beamdog. Lowest difficulty settings don't require much attention and you'll breeze through most of the time. On harder difficulty settings, there're still plenty of ways to go around but you must learn to not be a sitting duck because hits are less forgiving.
Only in ToB does the game really restrict you. Some options that worked well in the past become a no-no - like backstabbing - and it becomes harder and harder to hit if you don't have well-trained companions. Specialization becomes more important, and spellcasting - when possible - usually takes the cake.
My own memory of my initial attempts, though, was that encounters were either brutally hard - meaning you hadn't figured out what immunities/spells/items would do the trick - or a cakewalk if you had. Monsters that charm your party, or insta-kill with petrification, or snag you with Web - all of which are helpless if you know ahead of time to somehow get immunity to those things. It's a brutally punishing game for beginners, and I don't see how one wouldn't label it T&E based solely on how frequently one is expected to die and reload.
I interpreted the question more as "is metagaming necessary", and I find it very difficult to say no. Baldur's Gate is full of "lol, here's a basilisk" moments where a new player WILL die, with no realistic expectation that they'll just be magically skilled enough to overcome whatever insta-kill was thrown their way without knowing about it in advance. So they'll die, they'll buy a protection scroll, and then they'll waltz through. Trial and error.
After years and dozens of plays, a player knows exactly where on each map each encounter is, and exactly which spells or potions are needed to beat them.
Even the term "experience" in "experienced player" would be defined here as "Having had extensive attempts at trial and error and having learned from the outcomes."
This thread is confusing.
Generally speaking, once you've learnt the basic tactic of having a stealthed thief scouting ahead looking for traps, there is very little that could take you by surprise even if you had no prior knowledge of the game.
Learning isn't exclusively trial and error though. That's one way but also learning from enemy behaviour, the manual and in game descriptions, and forums etc.
To me it means "Try something to see if it works. If it doesn't, it was an error, so try something different, until you find what does in fact work." Synonyms: experiment, experience, practice. Implies a lack of knowledge beforehand, with increased knowledge after.
Cambridge dictionary online says:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/trial-and-error
"a way of achieving an aim or solving a problem by trying different methods and learning from your mistakes"
So yeah, sure I know where the basalisks are but is my spatial awareness of where I am in the area always spot on?
Unfortunately not.
I would contrast that with an approach where you assess the situation and consider your approach before making the next decision. It's still possible that that won't work and you have to re-evaluate and try again, but I see that as a different method from trial and error.
Therefore, to simply call "trial and error" every game that requires you to use your brain makes the adjective null because that's going to be almost all games. What's the point ?
Now you could argue that a "trial and error" game is a game that makes you think A LOT so you choose the best solution among lots and lots of possibilities. Baldur's Gate might be one of those. It's possible but it wouldn't concern many games since gameplay is more often than not simplistic. Also, in this case, the word "error" of the "trial and error" term would disturb me.
If a "trial and error" game is simply one you need to think through, then why use the word "error" so blatantly ?
Now if the "trial and error" adjective is given to a game when you're repeatedly faced with challenges that have nothing do to with intelligence, it also makes sense and it can apply to a lot of games.
Like.. I'm going forth in an adventure game and, oops, a trap.. Was there a way to detect it ? Nope. Was there any mention of it ? No. Did anything stuck out so I could have guessed ? Nah. Did I need to take this path ? Yes. So I had to know that I needed to jump at this spot, somehow. But I couldn't have known it... until it gets me. How tedious.
So yeah, when there's no clue or no way to know that there's going to be some kind of challenge, when you're forced to fail to actually prevail next time, then it's "trial and error". I believe it's very close to "die and retry" in the way that it's meant to point out something that happens unfairly. The only difference would be that a "die and retry" game not only gives you unfair and mind-numbing challenges, it also kills you and forces you to replay the game over and over.
So one could say it's the worst form of "trial and error".
Now it's mere speculation and it's a totally subjective definition from my part.
Yes IMHO, BG is a T&E game, but no it's not just that, it's more. You get some hints here and there, ie the stone figures next to basilisks, or patterns on a wall in a dungeon indicating where you can expect traps. It's not always so though and you can just as well encounter a basilisk or a trap where you least expect it. And like others have said above, there's often many ways to beat each challenge which means there's seldom/never only one "right way" and the best of the best can solo pretty much the entire game with the most punishing mods using any class, which is a great testiment to how much you can overcome using T&E but also intuition and meta-knowledge combined.
1) A very large percentage of first time players will encounter their first death against a wolf or a bear on the first map outside of Candlekeep. The solution to the problem is to either stick to the main road, avoiding the wild animals, or to kite the animals with ranged weapons. How would you know to do that if you had not during your early experience attempted to melee a wolf or bear with your lousy first level AC and gear, and died from the attempt? I say you couldn't possibly have known that. In fact, previous experience with fantasy games would lead you to believe that you are supposed to be able to melee creatures successfully at first level on the first map outside of the tutorial area.
2) Another very large percentage of first time players will die on the steps of the FAI to Tarnesh's Mirror Image-Horror-Magic Missile combo. There are several solutions to this problem, including Remove Fear spell for clerics, ranged attacks, using the guards, and having a four member party that includes Montaron and Xzar. How would you know what to do to deal with Tarnesh if you had never before experienced death at his hands? I say you couldn't possibly have anticipated that and survived the encounter on your first play any way other than pure luck. In fact, previous experience with fantasy games would lead you to believe that you are supposed to be able to survive an encounter with a mage assassin in the first place the game tells you to go.
I call that learning through trial and error.
Similar encounters abound on every map in the game, all the way through ToB.