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Should Beamdog implement Catmull-Rom Bicubic/ESRGAN shading?

Pretty simple question about the amazing upscale resolution scalers out there!
  1. Should Beamdog implement Catmull-Rom Bicubic/ESRGAN shading?19 votes
    1. Yes
      100.00%
    2. No
        0.00%

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    No third option for, "I don't have a preference"? I think the current shaders are fine, but I'm not about to tell someone "No, you aren't allowed more options."
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    Darn, didn't really think of that. Seeing as how Beamdog is on the fence about it I was hoping a positive poll would help nudge them to do it. Won't let me edit the options though. :(
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    I wonder if these shaders add space to the game or impact performance....any comments?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    edited March 2019
    Catmull-Rom wouldn’t. It was the original in-engine scaler these games employed at release.

    ESRGAN most likely would—but I wouldn’t mind downloading the upscaled assets as a separate mod package or add-on of sorts, to be honest.
    Daemonia
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    so.... what do these shaders do.....?
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    edited March 2019
    make the game look better I think ...you didn't vote sarevok57?
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    Allanon81 wrote: »
    make the game look better I think ...you didn't vote sarevok57?

    indeed, not gonna vote on something if i dont know why im voting for :)
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    so if this Catmull-Rom Bicubic/ESRGAN shading thing is so amazing and all that, then why wouldn't they implement it?

    what is the advantage of not implementing this feature?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    edited March 2019
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    indeed, not gonna vote on something if i dont know why im voting for :)

    If you played BG:EE / BGII:EE / IWD:EE pre-2.0, you already know what Catmull-Rom Bicubic scaling looks like. It was the scaling algorithm these games employed at release, and was unfortunately replaced with (the much cruder and blurrier) bilinear filtering we have now (with the option to use Nearest Neighbor if we prefer heavy pixellation.)

    @lefreut posted screenshots for comparison recently in a different thread (though IMO the difference is a lot more evident in-game than on screenshots.)

    ESRGAN is, to the best of my knowledge, an A.I.-based scaler that gets better the more you use it (and it's already pretty good.) It can be used to upscale 2D assets so they look prettier. The downside is that pictures upscaled with ESRGAN take a lot more space (and upscaling all assets in the game is a time-consuming task.)

    Note that Catmull-Rom and ESRGAN do different things and can be used in conjunction.
    sarevok57
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    @sarevok57 I don't know what the advantage is to not implement this is either? Maybe they're super busy?
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited March 2019
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    No third option for, "I don't have a preference"? I think the current shaders are fine, but I'm not about to tell someone "No, you aren't allowed more options."

    if you think they are fine, that seems like a "no"
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    so if this Catmull-Rom Bicubic/ESRGAN shading thing is so amazing and all that, then why wouldn't they implement it?

    what is the advantage of not implementing this feature?

    there's no advantage.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited March 2019
    double
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    Wouldn't the advantage be it would look better?
    Daemonia
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Allanon81 wrote: »
    Wouldn't the advantage be it would look better?

    Think he was asking specifically about the alleged advantage of NOT implementing them.

    When 2.0 released, IIRC Beamdog said they had to implement Bilinear filtering to allow for sprite highlight and sprite contour (two features I don’t recall ever being asked for, but I digress.) More recently they said Catmull-Rom was causing issues on tablets (again, I don’t recall seeing anything about this but I might simply have missed it.)

    It remains baffling that when people complained about bilinear filtering being blurry, they gave us the option to use Nearest Neighbor and advertised it as the original scaler, when the original scaler was actually Catmull-Rom (and looked better than either—unsurprisingly, since it’s more advanced.)

    ESRGAN could make assets too big for any platform other than desktop and could take a very long time to upscale all assets. I’d be happy to download the upscaled assets as a separate mod-like package to circumvent size concerns, but I do understand the time ones.
    Daemonia
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    edited March 2019
    @AndreaColombo That leads into my next question, would they be available for phones/tablets. I assume ESRGAN would be too cpu/gpu intensive for mobile, maybe we could get Catmull-Rom?
    Post edited by Allanon81 on
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Catmull-Rom’s been on tablet/mobile until 2.0–there should be no problem bringing it back. ESRGAN could be problematic, especially on iOS where I believe apps have strict size limitations.
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    @AndreaColombo So Catmull-Rom is in 1.3?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Correct.
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    @AndreaColombo I wonder why they would take it out? If it looks better, what would be the reason to remove it?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    It's anyone's guess at this point.

    Early on (I'm talking BG:EE pre-release closed beta) the game employed bilinear filtering for scaling. Contracted programmer Philip Djonov ( @nop though I doubt he still browses these boards) was tasked with implementing Catmull-Rom Bicubic following a debate among testers initiated by @Zeckul (haven't seen him around in a while either.)

    When 2.0 was released, the game went back to bilinear. Going by memory, it was done because bilinear would enable the sprite contour and sprite highlight features (which are pointedly unavailable when switching to Nearest Neighbor, in fact.) Some users complained about the degrade in visual quality (bilinear is visibly blurrier than Catmull-Rom) and Beamdog implemented the option to use Nearest Neighbor, selling it as the previous scaler (which was untrue; the previous scaler was the much more advanced Catmull-Rom Bicubic.)

    More recently, Julius said in a different thread that Catmull-Rom was causing issues on mobile devices.

    Perhaps both are true, though I honestly don't see how Catmull-Rom could be problematic on mobile devices—then again, I'm no programmer.

    Having the option to use Catmull-Rom again would be a godsend.
    bob_vengAllanon81
  • Allanon81Allanon81 Member Posts: 326
    *Gets on knees with hands clasped in prayer* Please GOD bring back Catmull-Rom bicubic ...
    Daemonia
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited March 2019
    however, now there is ESRGAN too, which is a completely new development, and the devs did say that they are toying with the idea of implementing it in some undisclosed way

    Catmull-Rom and ESRGAN, are, of course, complementary, because ESRGAN-upscaled resources would need a rendering method in-game, and a superior method would just make them look even better.

    edit: also, upscaled assets would get the closest to the most widely understood meaning of "enhanced", when talking about "enhanced" or "remastered" 2d games.
    AndreaColomboAllanon81Ludwig_II
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    I could settle for Catmull-Rom, but ESRGAN + Catmull-Rom would be pure visual bliss (and ESRGAN can apply not only to backdrops, but also to sprites, icons, paperdolls, UI, etc..)
    Allanon81Ludwig_II
  • KathSKathS Member Posts: 3
    Yes, so much yes! Please, pretty please, bring the original Catmull-Rom scaling back. It looked way, way better than what we have in 2.x now. Please?
    AndreaColombo
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