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Grimoire heralds of the winged exemplar(BG + M&M)

SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
Since everyone here(or at least the great majority) likes Baldur's Gate, Icewind dale and NWN and M&M games, i found this game when i was looking for M&M like games and according to the reviwer the game can be defined as "what if BG and M&M has an son", there are an topic about the game, but is 2 years old ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64366/grimoire-greenlit-on-steam-hell-freezes-over ), since i believe that the game probably changed a lot, i an starting a new thread.

One aspect that i particularly din't liked about M&M VIII is that races and classes are linked; Grimoire did it in a different way, races can gain bonuses or penalties depending the class that they choose. For example, an Vamphyr get a lot of bonuses from being an Assassin or a Necromancer, but if you try be an cleric, you will get a massive 90% penalty and thats makes sense. The cleric on this game isn't like clerics on D&D, you can be an "cleric of Orcus" on D&D. On M&M VIII Vampires can't use dark magic and clerics are always humans, you can't make an elf cleric like on M&M VII.

The complete table can be viewd bellow.
Grimoire-Heralds-of-the-Winged-Exemplar-2.jpg

If you look to reviews, the game is very 8 or 80. Or you like it or you hate it. Even BG Siege of Dragonspear, is more easy to find people with neutral opinion. Anyone tested this game?

BelgarathMTH

Comments

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,368
    edited April 2019
    As I said in the old thread, it's the end result of a two-decade obsession of a CRPG mad scientist named Cleave Blakemore. And I have ALOT of affection for this game, despite it's problems. When it launched alot of features were missing, but about a year later they got added and we FINALLY got the manual. And trust me, you are going to want to consult the manual. The main point is this: if you like Wizardry 7. then Grimoire is the closest you are ever going to get to reliving it (though it is really an amalgamation of 6 & 7). But it's really not surprising that it took someone with a couple screws loose to make something like this, as D.W. Bradley was also clearly a little off his rocker.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    As I said in the old thread, it's the end result of a two-decade obsession of a CRPG mad scientist named Cleave Blakemore. And I have ALOT of affection for this game, despite it's problems. When it launched alot of features were missing, but about a year later they got added and we FINALLY got the manual. And trust me, you are going to want to consult the manual. The main point is this: if you like Wizardry 7. then Grimoire is the closest you are ever going to get to reliving it (though it is really an amalgamation of 6 & 7). But it's really not surprising that it took someone with a couple screws loose to make something like this, as D.W. Bradley was also clearly a little off his rocker.

    Thanks. Talking about first person dungeon crawlers, people recommended it and said that has the same in depth character creation of Wizardry with the same fast combat of Might & Magic. I honestly don't like very long battles that are "do the same over and over"...

  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 917
    edited April 2019
    Looking at that table reminds me of Warlords Battlecry series, a RTS with a special hero unit you moved from battle map to battle map. From what I understand, Warcraft 3 ripped off the idea.

    Anyways, the first game had 9 races to choose for your army, and 8 of them could be the race of your hero. And then there were 12 classes IIRC. Though not every race could have every class, although "fighter" existed for every race IIRC (but for some reason I think there was one race that didn't, that couldn't have them, I want to say high elf). I remember humans could pick any class except runemaster, that was a Dwarf only.

    At first level, you picked an archetype (fighter/mage/priest/thief). At level 2 you picked your specialization (actual class). For example, Minotaurs could be a mage and then a pyromancer with flame spells, but a high elf mage could only be an alchemist (spells generally made things like magical items or golems) or an archmage (one of the most OP because they could eventually get access to ALL magic spells).

    Hero Race mattered a little bit with special abilities per hero race, and possibly bonus the race you were using for army, but it only had a slight effect on your by affecting your starting stats.

    But then they had MORE races and classes later. I know WBC2 had 16 races, and you could be a hero for any of them. I only played the first 2, but I think WBC3 had 18.

    Hero class definitely mattered, because an Assassin played very different than an Archmage who played different than a Paladin or Bard, who played different than a Fighter. An assassin had an inherent ability to randomly kill any unit it was attacking, but was otherwise a poor character. An archmage could pick all the spells, while a fighter just straight up fought and fought. A Paladin or Bard (or Trader even in WBC2 for serious OPness) was generally not a great fighter, but their ability to get a huge Merchant skill meant that they paid very little to build buildings and armies and could win by building faster and cheaper and eventually swarming.

  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,731
    I sunk quite some time into WBC3, but frankly I can't in good conscience call its class/race combos particularly unique across the table. The game would be usually won by the veteran units in your hero's retinue, while the character itself would be just another unit with more abilities.
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    as D.W. Bradley was also clearly a little off his rocker.
    I still wish they'd make Dungeon Lords 2 :D

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
    One more question. No SCI-FI? I don't think that sci-fi mixed is good. On M&M VI/VII once i got blasters, i was "outDPS' everything other weapon and most spells, except high tier dark magic.

    About Dungeon Lords, Ardanis i liked the game, but hated the puzzles. used online guides many times and was immersion breaking all the time. If you wanna diversify and make the game have more activities, why not introduce ships? Trade management? City management? Construction? Literally anything else? IMO is very boring to be constant pushing levers to open an indestructible wooden door that is more resistant than deities, the greatest majority of puzzles makes zero sense and require try and error instead of thinking. I can think in few good puzzles like for example on Hotu expansion for nwn, to enter the beholder cave but on the last act of the same expansion, the game trows a lot of awful puzzles.

    I din't managed to beat IWD 2 exactly by a puzzle. Even looking online, the instructions are so vague. I payed for the game, but can't enjoy the majority of the content, only because i can't foretell what the developers want me to do. That is very frustrating. I started to hate puzzles with Hexen puzzles. Played Heretic as a child, but when i got Hexen i tough "cool, looks like heretic" but without internet, i never completed Hexen by it and i din't had many games as a child.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,533
    edited April 2019
    @SorcererV1ct0r , Okay, I don't actually understand this post. I've never heard of this game before. Is it something in current release? If so, it sounds like something I want to put on my list of "games I need to try."
    EDIT: Okay, I went and found this game on Steam. It looks almost identical to "Wizardry 8", *not* MM 6-8. There's a very big difference there for me. I tried Wizardry once, and I could not get into it at all.

    However it's only a $10 game. Still, I'd like to know before I spend any time on it, is it more like MM 6-8, which it doesn't look like, or Wizardry, which it looks so much like, if I didn't know it wasn't Wizardry, I'd think I was looking at a Wizardry screen shot?

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,368
    @SorcererV1ct0r , Okay, I don't actually understand this post. I've never heard of this game before. Is it something in current release? If so, it sounds like something I want to put on my list of "games I need to try."
    EDIT: Okay, I went and found this game on Steam. It looks almost identical to "Wizardry 8", *not* MM 6-8. There's a very big difference there for me. I tried Wizardry once, and I could not get into it at all.

    However it's only a $10 game. Still, I'd like to know before I spend any time on it, is it more like MM 6-8, which it doesn't look like, or Wizardry, which it looks so much like, if I didn't know it wasn't Wizardry, I'd think I was looking at a Wizardry screen shot?

    It's best to think of it as Wizardry 7 with an auto-map. It is turn-based combat on a grid with a party of 8 people. If it is similar to any Might & Magic games, it is Isles of Terra and World of Xeen, which are quite different from 6-8.

    BelgarathMTH
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
    I really liked the game, but at least now in the starting area, my spells are almost useless, enemies success on their saves on 95%+ times and the see my drakes failing to penetrate rat armor is ludicrous. But the game is interesting. I think that on higher level, will be better;

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
    I honestly don't recommend the game. Why? The game don't offer much information that is necessary

    Look to Pathfinder Kingmaker. If i cast finger of death and the enemy succeed on their save, the game shows exactly the dice roll + fortitude. On Grimoire, my drake and my gigant fail to penetrate an rat "armor" and the game don't show why. I need to foretell. To make things worse, most spells deals ZERO damage on failed save.

    Also, the manual say a lot about diseases, that you need to talk to NPC's, but the NPC's require that you write an full sentense and i tried everything, to every NPC that i saw and no information on manual or searching on google. Where and what i need to say to cure diseases???? Only that maybe if i learn "mindread", i don't need to be able to foretel what i need to say to NPC's. That is the unique useful information in the manual.

    Don't get me wrong, the game is good, but the lack of information is a serious flaw.

    BelgarathMTH
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,368
    I honestly don't recommend the game. Why? The game don't offer much information that is necessary

    Look to Pathfinder Kingmaker. If i cast finger of death and the enemy succeed on their save, the game shows exactly the dice roll + fortitude. On Grimoire, my drake and my gigant fail to penetrate an rat "armor" and the game don't show why. I need to foretell. To make things worse, most spells deals ZERO damage on failed save.

    Also, the manual say a lot about diseases, that you need to talk to NPC's, but the NPC's require that you write an full sentense and i tried everything, to every NPC that i saw and no information on manual or searching on google. Where and what i need to say to cure diseases???? Only that maybe if i learn "mindread", i don't need to be able to foretel what i need to say to NPC's. That is the unique useful information in the manual.

    Don't get me wrong, the game is good, but the lack of information is a serious flaw.

    First off, have a bard in your party. Their lyre can nearly lockdown most enemies in the first area (well, it was this way when the game launched, he may have made balance changes). Also, there is a fairie named Rosie in the opening area who can be recruited who has a poison dagger and is WAY overpowered for the beginning of the game.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,880
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    (...)

    First off, have a bard in your party. Their lyre can nearly lockdown most enemies in the first area (well, it was this way when the game launched, he may have made balance changes). Also, there is a fairie named Rosie in the opening area who can be recruited who has a poison dagger and is WAY overpowered for the beginning of the game.

    The problem is not exactly the beginning of the game. I an already on Chamber of the Waters map. Don't know what i need to do. Even following this guide that is the best IMO https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1107532654

    One instruction "3. Rubblish. LOOK at it to find a flagstone, which triggers the wall to open." even with my blessed almost rank 100 spooting character, i found no flagstone. The game is good, the greatest problem is that the developer expect that players can FORETELL what we need to do.

    Here is my "main" character

    q7AJMPK.png

    Without guides, who i can foretell that i need to offer an item to an NPC? That i need to exactly in one position of an dungeon, put item A + B then press the lever C while the dials are in a specific position? That is a HUGE problem with the game. If this insane foretell parts was optional like one that you equip an helm and rest in a specific place, i an fine but i should't be forced to learn how to foretell in order to play an game.

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