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Should Kivan have had the archer class kit?

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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Chronicler wrote: »
    IRL Halberds aren't really comparable to Baldur's Gate Halberds. You just planted them in the ground and let the enemy horse run into it and impale itself. Then you'd fight the knight on top of the horse with some other weapon, since your halberd's now stuck in the horse.

    There wasn't really any complicated martial art built around halberds or anything.

    I know that people got hurt or killed too, but think of a horse being hurled by a halberd made me sad xD

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    Nope. Unkitted Ranger. Kivan's strength lies in his versatility. I will forever lecture these forums on this matter because no one knows how to have him pull out a melee weapon for some reason.

    Archer: People literally just think this because of his portrait, and because Bows are ludicrously powerful in BG1 so people stick him to this. But what NPC Archer would have an 18/12 Strength? A bit of a waste. I realize Composite Long Bows require an 18 Strength, but vanilla BG1 had no Strength requirements. True story.

    Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.

    Beastmaster: LOL yea no. Thankfully no one is arguing for this.

    DJKajuruDharius
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,293
    I know vanilla BG1 had no composite longbows, but I thought for sure it had strength requirements.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Quartz wrote: »
    Nope. Unkitted Ranger. Kivan's strength lies in his versatility. I will forever lecture these forums on this matter because no one knows how to have him pull out a melee weapon for some reason.

    Archer: People literally just think this because of his portrait, and because Bows are ludicrously powerful in BG1 so people stick him to this. But what NPC Archer would have an 18/12 Strength? A bit of a waste. I realize Composite Long Bows require an 18 Strength, but vanilla BG1 had no Strength requirements. True story.

    Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.

    Beastmaster: LOL yea no. Thankfully no one is arguing for this.

    You're not wrong ,except for archers not having exceptional strength . Historically longbows have always relied on the archer's strength.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    @DJKajuru All bows rely on the archer's strength. Bows being a weapon for weak folk is a fantasy cliche. But I think that Quartz was talking from a gamer's perspective, not from a historical point of view.

    ChroniclerThacoBellQuartzilduderino
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,293
    That being said, Corwin has 18/05 strength, so I'm not sure how well that holds up either.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,420
    Chronicler wrote: »
    I know vanilla BG1 had no composite longbows, but I thought for sure it had strength requirements.

    oBG has composite longbows--Winthrop has one available for sale right at the start. It also had strength requirements on weapons, but the engine did not enforce them. The most notorious example is Quayle's 8 strength, yet comes with a flail that requires 13 strength to wield.

    For the record, BGEE subs in a club for his flail. Tutu subs in a mace, which he still can't wield (min 10 strength) and BGT bumps up his strength five points so he can wield the flail.

    ChroniclerThacoBellQuartz
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    @CamDawg Strength is a level 2 spell. Could people not have just given him that?

    Dharius
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,183
    @Humanoid_Taifun : Quayle starts at level 2/2; he doesn't have any level 2 wizard spell slots yet. On top of that, Strength only has a duration of one hour; what's he going to do the rest of the day when someone gets in close and it's not safe to use his sling? It's much more practical to carry a weapon he can always equip.

    elminster
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,293
    jmerry wrote: »
    @Humanoid_Taifun : Quayle starts at level 2/2; he doesn't have any level 2 wizard spell slots yet. On top of that, Strength only has a duration of one hour; what's he going to do the rest of the day when someone gets in close and it's not safe to use his sling? It's much more practical to carry a weapon he can always equip.

    In vanilla BG1 they started out at a level comparable to your player character. So while technically 2/2 was the lowest possible level you could recruit him at, in practice he'd be much higher level, because you had to clear the cloakwood mines before you could recruit him. You could count on him having 2nd level spells in his book by the time you met him.

    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,902
    @Quartz "Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.
    "

    Where did you get the idea that Kivan hates cities?

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Quartz "Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.
    "

    Where did you get the idea that Kivan hates cities?

    His voiceset.

    ThacoBellQuartzMERLANCE
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 447
    edited May 2019
    Kivan was invented long before kits even existed. Because of this, and because I don’t approve of tampering with the BG1 NPCs I think he should stay as he is. Of course, if someone wants to change him in any way they can use a Mod or Gatekeeper.

    I also like the way he’s got points in halberds, even though he’s an elf...why not?

    Quartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,902
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Quartz "Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.
    "

    Where did you get the idea that Kivan hates cities?

    His voiceset.

    Fair enough. I haven't used him in a long time.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    edited May 2019
    @ThacoBell
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Quartz "Stalker: Seems thematically appropriate given his vengeful nature, but the problem is Stalkers are supposed to operate within cities no problem. Kivan hates cities and shuns them whenever possible.
    "

    Where did you get the idea that Kivan hates cities?
    "The city is an example of man's excesses. Ugh, I wish we would be gone from this miserable place."

    He also makes some condescending remark about "city folk" when you first talk to him to recruit him if your Charisma isn't very high. Can't quote it verbatim unlike the other line, sorry.

    ThacoBell
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    edited May 2019
    Chronicler wrote: »
    That being said, Corwin has 18/05 strength, so I'm not sure how well that holds up either.
    Kivan is a character by BioWare in 1998. Corwin is a character by Beamdog in 2016. I don't see how the two are even comparable in the slightest. I see your point, but it really isn't applicable. Again, Kivan didn't *need* a high strength to wield Composite Long Bows, since strength requirements weren't enforced in vanilla BG1. I'm basically making the argument that it's not very fair to view these 1998 characters through the scope of the game's extended engine and features we have today.
    Dharius wrote: »
    Kivan was invented long before kits even existed. Because of this, and because I don’t approve of tampering with the BG1 NPCs I think he should stay as he is. Of course, if someone wants to change him in any way they can use a Mod or Gatekeeper.

    I also like the way he’s got points in halberds, even though he’s an elf...why not?
    And if all that logos isn't good enough, I gotta go with the pathos here. Kivan's unique the way he is. He doesn't need to be an Archer, dual-wielding scimitars in his free time, because WOWEE ELVES and RANGERS and such. I mean damn, he's an Elf with an 8 Charisma... Dude looks to have a decent face, but he's a vengeance monger and doesn't make friends easily. He wasn't exactly made to fit all the stereotypes. So what if he's an adaptable, vanilla ranger who uses pole-arms. That's Kivan.

    Disclaimer: I ain't mad at anyone of course, I'm just very passionate 'cuz I've loved Kivan since 1999 when I was five years old. I'm a huge gamer and despite all the innumerable games I've played, Kivan is still one of my favorite characters. So I get a little uppity when people, in my view, "don't get it." So please no one take it personally, just me being opinionated as always :)

    Skatan
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,293
    edited May 2019
    Quartz wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    That being said, Corwin has 18/05 strength, so I'm not sure how well that holds up either.
    Kivan is a character by BioWare in 1998. Corwin is a character by Beamdog in 2016. I don't see how the two are even comparable in the slightest. I see your point, but it really isn't applicable. Again, Kivan didn't *need* a high strength to wield Composite Long Bows, since strength requirements weren't enforced in vanilla BG1. I'm basically making the argument that it's not very fair to view these 1998 characters through the scope of the game's extended engine and features we have today.

    Going by your reasoning, we have no idea how Bioware would've designed an archer in 1998, because they never designed an archer, so his strength score means nothing.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    @Quartz Why do you assume that the strength requirement not being enforced was intentional?
    It sounds like a bug to me.

    ThacoBellChronicler
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    edited May 2019
    Didn't ToSC change that? I can't even remember vanilla BG1 weapons had a STR req in the description...

    Quartz
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    @Quartz Why do you assume that the strength requirement not being enforced was intentional?
    It sounds like a bug to me.
    Not a bug initially, but an oversight. Because:
    Gatekeep3r wrote: »
    Didn't ToSC change that? I can't even remember vanilla BG1 weapons had a STR req in the description...
    I'm with @Gatekeep3r, as I recall vanilla vanilla BG1, no TotSC, had no strength requirements listed at all. You were restricted purely based on what you could carry. I pretty distinctly recall trying to get certain weak characters to wear armor and being stopped only by encumbrance.

    Anywho, at the end of the day I just feel that Kivan is nice as a vanilla Ranger. Making him an Archer would actually make him a worse and less versatile character. His prowess lies in the fact that he's one of the most versatile warriors in the game. Hell, probably the most versatile before Dorn was added. Khalid is pretty adaptable as well.

    Dharius
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    @Quartz Exactly. I remember what godsends Ankheg plate and mail of the dead were for Viconia purely for that.

    Quartz
  • Opus131Opus131 Member Posts: 18
    edited March 14
    DJKajuru wrote: »

    Stalkers are rangers who blend with the common folk ,specially in villages and urban areas in order to spy and gather information. Canonically, Kivan ain't doing any of those.

    Not necessarily, as he may be blending with common folks, villages and urban areas to pursue his vendetta.

    Just because he hates cities doesn't mean he lacks the ability to infiltrate urban areas and he would sort of have to if he meant to track Tazok.

    I mean, sure, he could have just tracked their movements in the forest but don't forget the bandits were actually mercenaries pretending to be robbers and Kivan might have tracked some of them into the city which forced him to start looking for answers there. He may have also got into the habit of going into villages or towns to look for details about all the people who were robbed or attacked.

    So while not a stalker by preference he may have become one by necessity.

    Greener
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    8cw04qkl5d9u.jpeg

    IMO stalker makes more sense. It states here both urban and wilderness settings.

    If the decision were to make him an archer, I don’t see that being anymore OP than a bezerker or a F/T. There is another thread for OP and archers aren’t at the top of that list.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,146
    Kivan has a really low charisma score of 8. I don't think that given how obviously uncomfortable he is with cities, he would ever be able to blend in successfully. A stalker must be able to operate in both the wilderness and in urban cities, not just one of the two.

    DJKajuruThacoBell
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    Ammar wrote: »
    Kivan has a really low charisma score of 8. I don't think that given how obviously uncomfortable he is with cities, he would ever be able to blend in successfully. A stalker must be able to operate in both the wilderness and in urban cities, not just one of the two.

    Yeah but Valgar only had a charisma of 10. The way I see a stalker is a low charisma makes sense because they would appear so ordinary and unremarkable where they become naturally invisible.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 910
    I actually think that a low charisma score would make it as easy to get intel as a high score. The approach is different and but the results may be the same.

    If I where to RP a low charisma stalker bound for an intel job in the city, I would dress like a foul smelling pauper. I would stick out, but everyone would keep their eyes of me. I could share a meal and some copper with the downtrodden and penniless in the city and get the intel I wanted. Pulling that off as a 18 charisma elf would be hard - as a natural non looker it would be manageable.

    And 18 charisma elf has other means for getting the same intel and could also do the job with ease - but would be under much more scrutiny since all eyes would be on him/her. And 18 score would guarantee attention - even the wrong kind.

    I guess both the handsome and the not so handsome can get the job done. It’s just about managing your assets.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,293
    edited March 20
    In the pen and paper handbook, stalkers are described as very silent. Their information gathering is comprised more of being highly skilled and inconspicuous listeners than their ability to sweet talk anybody.

    In gameplay terms any time they hear anybody say anything, they can make a check to see if this man is pre-disposed to dishonesty (though not if he's lying right this instant), and a check to see something else I forget. They don't, to my recollection, get any bonuses with bluff checks or anything like that though. They're the quiet dude in the crowd picking up more of your conversation than they seem to. More than even you are, possibly.

    ThacoBell
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