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Alternative weapon proficiencies (especially Mazzy and Keldorn)

HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
Hi,

my party consists of:
Hadar (Cleric 12 / Mage 12):
War Hammer: +
Flail/Morning Star: +
Mace: +
Sling: +
Sword and Shield Style: +

Ranged weapon: Sling of Everard
Melee weapon: Defender of Easthaven


Keldorn Firecam (Inquisitor 13):
Long Sword: ++
Two Handed Sword: ++
Cross Bow: ++
Two Handed Weapon Style: ++

Ranged weapon: The Guide
Melee weapon: Joril's Dagger


Mazzy Fentan (Fighter 15):
Short Sword: +
Short Bow: +++++
Two Handed Weapon Style: ++
Unassigned: +

Ranged weapon: Tuigan Bow
Melee weapon: Dragon's Bane


Rasaad yn Bashir (Sun Soul Monk 15):
Katana: +
Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninjatō: +
Dart: +
Sling: +
Single Weapon Style: +

Ranged weapon: Sling of Seeking
Melee weapon: Celestial Fury


Jan Jansen (Illusionist 12 / Thief 13) - will be replaced by Imoen:
Short Sword: +
Dagger: +
Quarter Staff: +
Cross Bow: +
Two Handed Weapon Style: +

Ranged weapon: Flasher Launcher
Melee weapon: Staff of Rynn


Neera (Wild Mage 14):
Dagger: +
Quarter Staff: +
Sling: +

Ranged weapon: Sling +3
Melee weapon: Quarterstaff +3


Sarevok Anchev will replace Keldorn Firecam or Mazzy Fentan (I still did not decide who to drop in ToB,


Mazzy just hit 15 level and I don't know in what weapon I should train her now (the same problem I will have when Keldorn will hit 15 level). Mazzy is my main archer but when she needs she goes melee. I tough to train her in halberds, because she already has two point in Two Handed Weapon Style (due to Short Bow being her primary weapon), but I'm not sure if I should go with halberds, because I will drop her or Keldorn for Sarevok (I can't decide who) who has on start one point in halberds and two points Two Handed Weapon Style and if drop Keldorn I'm not sure if I need two halberds fighter. So I though I maybe should train her in spears? Or maybe go for two weapons (she can get up 17 proficiencies points, so there are 9 that she still can get, so it would be long journey and I have no idea with what weapon should her go).

The same problem I will have with Keldorn, who already has two points Two Handed Weapon Style, so I tough to go for him with Quarter Staff (only two handed blunt weapon), because I think that Carsomyr position is save and only in some instances there would be need for some kind blunt weapon? But maybe I should go for two weapons and at least one blunt as alternative for Carsomyr? But still I don't have idea which I should chose.


As for the rest party goes, Neera is obvious Sling + Quarter Staff, Jan for now is Cross Bow + Quarter Staff, but Imoen will replace him and I think she will go with Short Bow + Quarter Staff, Rasaad is also obvious Sling + Fists (as alternative weapon he has Celestial Fury). My Charname is the main tank, so he is only one with shield in team and he goes with Sling + the best blunt weapon I have.

How do you think in what direction I should develop Mazzy and Keldorn?

Post edited by Hadar on

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,013
    A few things:

    Two Handed Weapon Style does not apply to ranged weapons. Since you already have those points for Mazzy, you may as well put extra slots into halberd. Being a fighter, she's also one of the strongest dual-wielders in the game.

    Keldorn has good Strength but poor Dexterity, so unless you're using the Gauntlets of Dexterity, I would recommend a ranged weapon that applies Strength bonus (axes, daggers, slings) and ignore the crossbow proficiency. Quarterstaff isn't bad, as blunt weapon proficiency is useful against clay golems.

    For Neera, Dagger or Darts > Sling as daggers have more APR and Neera's strength doesn't give any bonuses.

    gorgonzola
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @AionZ

    Are you sure that Two handed Weapon Style does not apply to any ranged weapons? O.o If yes I can just edit the proficiencies using EEKeeper.

    Keldorn of course goes with Gauntlets of Dexterity. For now he has cross bow because he already had two points in Cross Bows - as for now I've only gave him points in Two handed Weapon Style.

    Neera goes with Sling because I did not found any returning dagger (if I remember correctly). As for darts goes - I've never was keen to used them. But in Ust Natha I can buy her Firetooth dagger. :P

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    edited June 9
    Hadar wrote: »

    Are you sure that Two handed Weapon Style does not apply to any ranged weapons? O.o If yes I can just edit the proficiencies using EEKeeper.
    he is correct, no bonus with ranged weapons.
    as you are willing to edit the proficiencies i add my 2 cents.

    charname: from a certain level a C/M is very effective in mlee, as he can use his arcane spells for protection, both the ones that negate the damage, like stoneskin and pfmw, and the ones that make AC better, like blurr, thing that cause the stoneskins to last longer.
    offensively he can use the combination holy power (more hp, str set to 18.00 and same thac0 as a fighter of the level of cleric), righteous magic (other hp, str bonus that stacks with the set value from HP, that overrides the items, and maxed damage roll), and DUHM (many stat boosts).
    a C/M can DW very effectively even with only a single pip in that style, pulling out 4 apr with the 25 str bonus and thac0 better of the one of many fighters, in end game a C/M and his simulacrum can do something like 350 dmg round if all hits are successful.
    but at least a pip in DW must be there, while sword and shield is a joke, the least useful weapon style, swap them with EEkeeper.
    the next proficiency for him must be staff (of the magi), with the Thac0 a buffed C/M can reach in his hands it is as good as the special pally sword to dispel on hit.

    imoen: why not katana for her? celestial fury rocks until the end of TOB, and anyway a mage should not be in mlee, if is not some FM or CM.

    keldorn: the returning daggers are really powerful, same dmg as a bastard sword, +1 apr and str bonus ranged, i would probably go for 2 pips in dagger with him.
    mlee, dw in the mh a returning dagger and in oh the right long sword, he can do a lot of damage, with 4.5 apr, 9 improved hasted.

    Mazzy: if you push short sword, or change it in an other weapon that can be dw and push it, she eventually will reach GM and then she will be super strong mlee as she is ranged. she is 1 pip from getting 1/2 apr more and 4 to get a full attack and other bonuses.

    darts: to have someone able to use them is always nice, as there are the returning one and some that have added effects. but there are also ways to rise the str of a mage and the sling gets the str bonus, that with the cheap spell that give 18.50 is +3 dmg but with items can be more (and the items that charname can normally use are not effective when he is buffed as are overwritten so can be swapped to a mage with sling.
    sling also has a good speed factor and the fact that it has only 1 apr let use it and cast a spell with long casting time in the same round possible.
    i usually go for sling, but are both viable alternatives, and a mage can have a pip in both the styles with no problem.

    edit: with your party i probably would decide to not build the special hammer that brings str to 25, as the most probable use of that hammer, charname, has not any problem to bring his str to that value with his magic.
    the gauntlets and the belts needed for the upgrade can be more beneficial if used to boost your team, the fighters will have better str and the mages will actually do some damage with their slings.




  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    edited June 9
    @gorgonzola
    1. I have one problem with Crom Faeyr, that is Charname has only 9 strength (and if I can this will be the attribute that I sacrifice in Spellhold). If I will go with Crom Faeyr I will be forced to use melee all the time because switching weapons will probably cause that I will not be able to carry my equipment. And since Keldorn and Rasaad would heavily benefit from strength boosting items I am even more sceptical to sacrifice them for Crom Faeyr.
    2. Furthermore I play on LoB difficulty and without a character on which I can focus all enemy ranged fire few unnamed mercenaries will kick my ass. :v So I am afraid to loose my shield. Besides I can barely hit anything and with -4 Thac0 point in off-hand weapon I doubt it would hit anything,
    3. I am heavily focused on ranged fighting and I am very sceptical to use put anybody other than Charname (and to lesser degree Keldorn and Mazzy) in the closest range. So when I think about alternative weapon for Neera, Imoen and Jan I would prefer to give them as much space as possible. So a quarter staff seems to be only viable option.
    4. I rarely use Keldorn's ranged weapon and I think I will stick with cross bows. But I am thinking what would be the best blunt alternative to Carsomyr - third character with a staff? Or maybe some kind of dual wielding?
    5. I maybe will simplify the question - what is possible the best weapon set (in SoA and then ToB - I'm not sure if Mazzy will stay into ToB) for Mazzy other than short bow (she will stay as machine gun at least to the end of SoA)

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    @Hadar
    Charname has only 9 strength (and if I can this will be the attribute that I sacrifice in Spellhold). If I will go with Crom Faeyr I will be forced to use melee all the time because switching weapons will probably cause that I will not be able to carry my equipment. And since Keldorn and Rasaad would heavily benefit from strength boosting items I am even more sceptical to sacrifice them for Crom Faeyr

    you have probably misread my suggestion, that is to NOT upgrade crom, not to do it.
    let's look at the str enhancing items you find in soa and tob:
    mace that gives 18 str, gauntlets that give 18.00 belts that give 19 (early), 20, 21 (underdark and end soa) and 22 (tob). and the lev 2 arcane spell give 18.50, is cheap and long lasting.
    charname can bring his str to 25 without any of those things, so you have items to buff the str of all the party, and until that moment the spells can help, so your fighters will hit for more damage (but not with xbow, only mlee or with returning weapons or slings.
    the gauntlets will fix the str of your c/m when is not buffed, but imho it should be only when the party is walking from place to place, a C/M buffed is 500% more efficient in combat, both ranged and mlee.

    " Besides I can barely hit anything and with -4 Thac0 point in off-hand weapon I doubt it would hit anything,"

    ranged will hit for like 22-28 dmg/hit with thac0 that can reach -13 depending on the sling and bullets, mlee with good weapons and end game will have something like 24 dmg/hit with FoA or a weapon of that tier and -8 MH -4 OH thac0, this dual welding. not buffed he will have thac0 in the positive range even if don't DW and his dmg/hit will be a lot lower.
    learn how to buff a C/M and you'll see by yourself that is the best tank, thanks to his arcane protections, and a strong damage dealer, only a little inferior to a good fighter, both as thac0 and damage/round.

    "I am heavily focused on ranged fighting and I am very sceptical to use put anybody other than Charname (and to lesser degree Keldorn and Mazzy) in the closest range. So when I think about alternative weapon for Neera, Imoen and Jan"

    ranged keldorn is much more effective with a returning dagger (str bonus, +1 apr, bastard sword base damage) then with an xbow, that is useful as some bolts are really powerful.
    at close range your mages can act as tanks using their magic if your fighters are low on hp, but in LoB the mages will not hit often both ranged and mlee, at least imoen with the katana, when she is in mlee range to tank, can sometimes stun someone, then all the hits he gets are automatic hits, no roll, very useful in LoB.
    not that you can base your strategy on that, but i personally would prefer her with celestial fury then with a staff if she has to be close to the enemy.

    "But I am thinking what would be the best blunt alternative to Carsomyr"

    ryn/ram staves, star mace, FoA (possibly the best weapon in game) and runehammer. also crom (but you need str items to build it) and club of detonation, that is risky as can backfire.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @gorgonzola
    1. My tactic is usually crowd control (Greater Malison, Web, Stinging Cloud, Killing Cloud, Slow, Chaos etc. etc.). My behind mages (Neera, Jan/Imoen) just doesn't have time for tanking because they are casting spells and by the end of battle fire from sling/crossbow/bow. When I do not need them to cast spell they stay behind and fire from sling/crossbow/bow). So I'm not interest with tanking with Neera, Jan/Imoen.
    2. Cleric/Mage is already my main tank and enemy archers main focus, so rely on combo of spells and his shield. I think that Fails of Ages + shield is the best option in this case.
    3. I rarely use Keldorn ranged attacks (only if I manage to crowd control all enemies). As for returning daggers go there are only two if I am correct: Firetooth (dagger) and Boomerang Dagger. I was thinking to give Firetooth to Neera and Boomerang Dagger isn't anything special, so I'm not convinced to invest in dagger proficiency for Keldorn.
    4. I think I will go with Staff of the Magi and Firetooth for Neera, Fail of Ages and Sling of Everard for Charname, Carsomyr and Staff of the Ram for Keldorn (unless some body will propose good two weapon combo for him, with at least one blunt weapon, as alternative for Carsomyr), and whatever best short bow and quarter staff is left for Imoen.
    5. But I still don't have idea what would be the best alternative weapon(s) for Mazzy instead of her primary Short Bow

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    boomerang dagger is very good, because it gives +1 apr and has 2d4+2 damage, its problem is low enchantment.
    by comparison a not returning +2 dagger has 1d4+2 and don't give the +1 apr.
    but if you prefer xbow is a viable option.

    the weapons depend by the party composition and the tactics a player uses, your choices are not bad, go with them.

    the best alternative for mazzy is gm in 2 weapons, short bow to use the tugian one that let her hit like a machine gun, and something that can be used mlee, dw or with a shield depending if in the situation is better to have more ac or dps. short sword is a good choice, but also long sword and other weapons can be used, short sword let you use kundane in the oh and her sword or later one better in the mh, to get more apr.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @gorgonzola
    1. I just think that I would have more benefits if I would train Keldorn in dual wielding (or even weapon with shield) as an alternative weapon to Carsomyr than invest points in Daggers.
    2. I will probably edit the save and put the two points from two handed weapon to wielding two weapons, add the remaining point in two weapon style so Mazzy proficiencies would look like:

    Short Sword: +
    Short Bow: +++++
    Two Weapon Style: +++

    and give Mazzy two short sword (probably Short Sword of Mask and Kundane), but then I do not know in what I should invest, because short swords probably are better for Mazzy as temporary weapon than developing grand mastery in them.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    Hadar wrote: »

    Short Sword: +
    Short Bow: +++++
    Two Weapon Style: +++
    probably
    Short Sword: ++
    Short Bow: +++++
    Two Weapon Style: ++
    is better as a fighter is effective with 2 DW pips only and she would gain the 1/2 apr from specialization and the +2 dmg right from the start.

    you will trade an OH thac0 worst by 1 with a MH thac0 better by 1 and +2dmg/hit and half attack more.
    then as she progresses you can add the 3rd pip in dw and slowly work toward the grand mastery.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @gorgonzola

    But I'm not convinced I want to invest any point in Short Swords... :p

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    then swap the point in short sword to an other weapon, let's say flail (of ages and the defender) or long sword, a lot of good ones trough the game, and walk your way toward GM in that weapon type.

    being mazzy a shorty it can be odd to have her with an halberd or a 2H sword, even if there are really good halberds, so the choice of flail or long sword has a logic.
    but if you choose halberd then you don't need 2 or 3 pips in dw, a single one in 2Hweapon is enough and you can reach GM in her mlee weapon earlier.

    if you know what to do you can even transform her special short sword in the arvoreen halberd, it is not hard to do with a modding tool, taking a halberd as template and copying the effects from the sword.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    edited June 12
    @gorgonzola I can swap points that I've distributed wrongly and I did not have any benefits from them, but I won't change points that Mazzy has on default, so the one point in short swords will stay. :P

    I am entertaining investment in axes (no one in my party has any points in them) and giving her Axe of the Unyielding. Off-hand I could even stay with short swords due to Kundane or invest in scimitars due to Belm (but there is possiblity that Mazzy achieve grand mastery in both axes and short swords, but in scimitars max she can achieve is high mastery). What do you think?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    i think that grand mastery is really strong and the end game short swords are quite good, with a short trip to wk you can even have one early in soa.
    she should reach 5 apr, so 10 improved hasted, when she uses kundane in the OH.
    i know that the upgraded axe is really strong, but going short sword gives you more power trough all the game.
    the 1/2 apr more and the benefits of GM should compensate well the fact that the axe is slightly better. only slightly because the vorpal effect uses saving throws, and at the moment you can upgrade it the st of the enemies, at least the ones that are a problem, are quite good.

    this is what i would do at your place, but also going for axe is not a bad choice. in that case i would chose gm and only 2 pips in dw instead of 3 pips in dw.

    mazzy is not the perfect tank, but is very good at doing damage, both ranged and mlee.
    your party is very strong mlee wise and as long as you avoid to use neera to buff the party has also magic power and a real thief, probably you will find the game very easy this time, and in the end game as you buff charname you will have a super mlee department, so in the end a super optimization of the weapons is not even needed for the end game battles as both charname and the monk have reached their peak in mlee power. this is one of the reason why i prefer a choice like short sword that is more balanced trough the whole game.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @gorgonzola After the hell I went though in Irenicus Prison, due to LoB difficulty, I really prefer to optimize :D

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,664
    i told that is not needed an optimization for the end game battles, and a more constant trough the game power curve is better, not that the optimization is not needed at all. :)

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 393
    From a roleplaying point of view, I kinda imagine Mazzy to be doing her best to try to live up to the ideals of a knightly paladin, so while I do equip her with a Shortbow most of the time, her secondary weapon set is a Short Sword and Small Shield (again, mostly for aesthetic and roleplaying reasons. Feel free to give her more powerful melee gear if you wish!) With her special abilities, she makes a decent secondary tank, and the shield helps shore up her AC so she's not pummeled into goo by heavy-hitting foes that swarm the front line.

    Keldorn can pretty much go Two-Handed Sword all the way, with a Crossbow for the rare occasions when you don't want him in melee (mostly vs Mind Flayers or Vampires). I suppose that giving him a Quarterstaff for the odd Clay Golem isn't a bad idea though; it benefits from his Two-Handed Weapon Style bonuses, and you'll no doubt have plenty of Cleric's Staves that you acquired as loot over the course of your adventures.

    gorgonzola
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