pushing on staves is way better as @jmerry tells, and imo 2Hsword can even be avoided (maybe to get GM in the ranged weapon) if not for the 50%MR.
the staff of the ram is more damaging then the swords, fantastic to stab and to dispell on hit the SoTM is there anyway.
and i prefer granted huge damage on every hit to the vorpal effect of the silver sword, that often happens when the enemy is already at low health and grants a save so in tob is way less effective.
a fighter like mr tob with the vorpal halberd (and deathbringer attack) spamming GWW is a completely different thing and there the vorpal weapons shine without doubt.
as i value MR i still value GM in 2Hsword, but i would equip it only for protection, opting for the stave every time my toon don't risk to be hit by a high damaging or other way powerful spell. maybe swapping weapon only at the moment i see the cast animation begin.
the DW option is different but as good, less damage on stabs, but more apr, and makes assassination or the use of mislead scrolls shine.
for a lev 9 dual i would go for it as the boost from crom imo is a key factor to keep him competitive in tob, while with a multi or a FMT i often go for staves and then 2Hsword.
May I ask what you mean by MR? It's a stupid question I should know the answer to I know.
And also are you serious about the staves? I mean even if they are better I don't think I want my Kensai/Thief using a staff...
MR: Magic Resistance. It's a percentage chance to ignore almost any magical effect, such as a fireball's damage or a Greater Malison spell. Not to be confused with MDR, magic damage resistance, which consistently reduces the type of damage found on such things as magic missiles or skull traps.
Why staves? Because a kensai/thief should be able to backstab and staves are the only two-handed weapon that can do that. If you're already using a two-handed sword, why not add another two-handed weapon as your alternative?
You could use a one-handed weapon like a long sword or katana for your backstabbing needs, but then you'd want a weapon style to go with that, and it's easier to just keep things consolidated. Switching from one-handed weapons to a two-hander when already in melee negates the two-hander's reach advantage, too. That's something a kensai build should be especially sensitive to, because of the AC weakness.
My current K/T followed this basic pattern; staff raised ASAP to grand mastery at 9, with one dot in two-handed style. The remaining initial proficiency and the level 12 fighter proficiency went to my secondary weapon, which then reached grand mastery at thief level 24 simultaneously with gaining Use Any Item to enable the specific class-restricted weapon I wanted - which of course couldn't backstab. The post-UAI version mostly just tears things up in melee as an absolute beast of a tank, but she's still got a staff she can switch to for devastating backstabs.
May I ask what you mean by MR? It's a stupid question I should know the answer to I know.
And also are you serious about the staves? I mean even if they are better I don't think I want my Kensai/Thief using a staff...
Magic Resistance. The reason to want 2-handed swords on a K/T is Carosmyr and its 50% magic resistance.
Staves are awesome for thieves. They're 2-handed, obviously. There's a +3 one available relatively early if you go to the right place in BG1, and the Staff of Striking can do serious damage on a backstab when you want it to (expensive to keep recharging it, but it can be done). The Staff of Rynn is a +4 staff and available from Ribald already in Chapter 2, and the Staff of the Ram deals big backstabbing damage (again, because its base damage is quite high). And then, of course, there's the Staff of the Magi, which you'll need UAI for. You can't backstab with it, but it grants you a number of defensive bonuses, dispel on hit (like Carsomyr), and auto-invisibility when you equip it (so swapping it back and forth allows great backstabs with another weapon).
May I ask what you mean by MR? It's a stupid question I should know the answer to I know.
And also are you serious about the staves? I mean even if they are better I don't think I want my Kensai/Thief using a staff...
others have already answer, and i 100% agree with them, i am very serious about it.
compare by yourself the damage done by the staff of the ram and carsomyr, even without the fact that with a staff you can stab (but not with the staff of the magi, be careful, its puropse is to grant you invisibility after the stab to go to hide avoiding retaliation or to dispell on hit the stoneskins).
staff of the ram:
THAC0 -4 bonus
Damage 1d6 +10 (crushing)
13.5 on average.
in tob upgrades to:
THAC0 -6 bonus
Damage
1d6 +12 (crushing), +1d4 (piercing)BGII:EE
15.5 on average + 2.5 piercing
can stab and you can use it before use any item.
carsomyr:
THAC0 -5 bonus
Damage
1d12+5, +5 extra vs. chaotic evil
11.5 on average if the enemy is not cahotic evil
in tob upgrades to
THAC0 -6 bonus
Damage
1d12+6, +6 extra vs. chaotic evil
12.5 on average if the enemy is not cahotic evil
can NOT stab and you can NOT use it before use any item, so before having the first class xp + 3Mxp, that is more then 4M xp for a dual at 13, so let say mid way trough tob.
ignoring that one is a staff and the other is a sword which one would you use looking only at the stats?
I mean... Granted... 50% MR on Carsomyr and level 30 dispel on-hit is at times a lot more valuable than the damage...
I'm going to advocate for Slings, oddly enough: Mazzy doesn't want them, Sarevok has better things to do and doesn't cause a game-over on his death, and slings have the unique capabilities of using a shield (shield of reflection for immunity to ranged attacks), being a full-ranged attack (unlike axes and darts and daggers), and adding STR damage on-hit. You're down 1 or 2 APR compared to bows, especially Tuigan's, but slings can get you so much additional safety I find it much more optimal for no-reload play.
@Neverused
i agree on the slings being really powerful, less attacks but tons of damage as the dmg from level of enchantment of the sling, the bullet and the str bonus stack.
a fighter that puts pips in them and uses good str items will be glad to see how they are effective combined with WW/GWW, pulling out more then 200 dmg/round with outstanding thac0.
but for a K->T, the combo we are talking about in the last posts, imho are not a wise choice as he can use them only after getting UAI, so late in the game if is not soloing. probably is better to push returning weapons, daggers or axes.
For overall playability, staves are a better pick than THS. I do wonder how Firetooth +3 stacks up? Less damage, but it gets +1 apr, you can DW with it on MH, does fire through Stoneskins, it can BS, it does ranged damage + str, only downside is things don't improve after getting Firetooth, ToB doesn't make daggers very competetive, but not terribly many things are immune to +3. You can even nab the Boomerang dagger very early, use those annoying poisoned daggers early too, and very helpfully for your Kensai period he keeps you largely out of melee.
On a side note the d12 damage of the carsomyr is interesting for a kensai, as it becomes 12 granted dmg when using kai, making the weapon only slightly less damaging then ram when comparing the upgraded weapons and more damaging in the not upgraded ones.
Still the fact that you need uai to equip it and that the 2Hswords you can use before are not so good and can not stab remains, as well as that 50%MR is a really good bonus.
I would still go for a dual weld build for a KT, further more if done at 9, but going for 2handers at least 2 pips in 2H sword, after getting GM in staves, are well spent.
If to push up to GM, probably loosing a ranged option, as the pips are not infinite, is a tough decision.
Comments
May I ask what you mean by MR? It's a stupid question I should know the answer to I know.
And also are you serious about the staves? I mean even if they are better I don't think I want my Kensai/Thief using a staff...
Why staves? Because a kensai/thief should be able to backstab and staves are the only two-handed weapon that can do that. If you're already using a two-handed sword, why not add another two-handed weapon as your alternative?
You could use a one-handed weapon like a long sword or katana for your backstabbing needs, but then you'd want a weapon style to go with that, and it's easier to just keep things consolidated. Switching from one-handed weapons to a two-hander when already in melee negates the two-hander's reach advantage, too. That's something a kensai build should be especially sensitive to, because of the AC weakness.
My current K/T followed this basic pattern; staff raised ASAP to grand mastery at 9, with one dot in two-handed style. The remaining initial proficiency and the level 12 fighter proficiency went to my secondary weapon, which then reached grand mastery at thief level 24 simultaneously with gaining Use Any Item to enable the specific class-restricted weapon I wanted - which of course couldn't backstab. The post-UAI version mostly just tears things up in melee as an absolute beast of a tank, but she's still got a staff she can switch to for devastating backstabs.
Magic Resistance. The reason to want 2-handed swords on a K/T is Carosmyr and its 50% magic resistance.
Staves are awesome for thieves. They're 2-handed, obviously. There's a +3 one available relatively early if you go to the right place in BG1, and the Staff of Striking can do serious damage on a backstab when you want it to (expensive to keep recharging it, but it can be done). The Staff of Rynn is a +4 staff and available from Ribald already in Chapter 2, and the Staff of the Ram deals big backstabbing damage (again, because its base damage is quite high). And then, of course, there's the Staff of the Magi, which you'll need UAI for. You can't backstab with it, but it grants you a number of defensive bonuses, dispel on hit (like Carsomyr), and auto-invisibility when you equip it (so swapping it back and forth allows great backstabs with another weapon).
compare by yourself the damage done by the staff of the ram and carsomyr, even without the fact that with a staff you can stab (but not with the staff of the magi, be careful, its puropse is to grant you invisibility after the stab to go to hide avoiding retaliation or to dispell on hit the stoneskins).
staff of the ram:
THAC0 -4 bonus
Damage 1d6 +10 (crushing)
13.5 on average.
in tob upgrades to:
THAC0 -6 bonus
Damage
1d6 +12 (crushing), +1d4 (piercing)BGII:EE
15.5 on average + 2.5 piercing
can stab and you can use it before use any item.
carsomyr:
THAC0 -5 bonus
Damage
1d12+5, +5 extra vs. chaotic evil
11.5 on average if the enemy is not cahotic evil
in tob upgrades to
THAC0 -6 bonus
Damage
1d12+6, +6 extra vs. chaotic evil
12.5 on average if the enemy is not cahotic evil
can NOT stab and you can NOT use it before use any item, so before having the first class xp + 3Mxp, that is more then 4M xp for a dual at 13, so let say mid way trough tob.
ignoring that one is a staff and the other is a sword which one would you use looking only at the stats?
I'm going to advocate for Slings, oddly enough: Mazzy doesn't want them, Sarevok has better things to do and doesn't cause a game-over on his death, and slings have the unique capabilities of using a shield (shield of reflection for immunity to ranged attacks), being a full-ranged attack (unlike axes and darts and daggers), and adding STR damage on-hit. You're down 1 or 2 APR compared to bows, especially Tuigan's, but slings can get you so much additional safety I find it much more optimal for no-reload play.
i agree on the slings being really powerful, less attacks but tons of damage as the dmg from level of enchantment of the sling, the bullet and the str bonus stack.
a fighter that puts pips in them and uses good str items will be glad to see how they are effective combined with WW/GWW, pulling out more then 200 dmg/round with outstanding thac0.
but for a K->T, the combo we are talking about in the last posts, imho are not a wise choice as he can use them only after getting UAI, so late in the game if is not soloing. probably is better to push returning weapons, daggers or axes.
Still the fact that you need uai to equip it and that the 2Hswords you can use before are not so good and can not stab remains, as well as that 50%MR is a really good bonus.
I would still go for a dual weld build for a KT, further more if done at 9, but going for 2handers at least 2 pips in 2H sword, after getting GM in staves, are well spent.
If to push up to GM, probably loosing a ranged option, as the pips are not infinite, is a tough decision.