Tip for 2nd weapon proficiency kensai/thief
Dordledum
Member Posts: 243
I got 5 pips in longswords and 3 in 2 weapon fighting on my lawful evil Kensai/Thief.
Really don't know what to choose for the other slots. Any tips? And why?
Really don't know what to choose for the other slots. Any tips? And why?
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Scimitar or shortsword work great. There are +1 apr weapons in those categories. Flail is also good for Defender of Easthaven and Flail of Ages. Mace also isn't bad if you need somebody to wield the Mace of Disruption.
Late game the KT lack of fighter HLA (GWW) and his base thac0 will be the rogue one, that even with GM and kensai bonus is not good as a true fighter thac0.
Other weapons like flail are welcome, and some enemies are immune to slashing, but imho it is less important then a ranged option (until HLA KT is a glass cannon) and apr or thac0 boost, depending on the particular enemy.
But daggers are also awesome on a Kensai/Thief:
- allows for ranged weaponry
- dagger of Venom in BG1 is very good (ok, too late for you on that one, but for future reference ^^)
- the magical returning daggers in BG2 deal 2d4 base damage, can be used in melee (2 base APR, plus whatever boni from fighter class, proficiencies and speed weapons/haste), which actually make them very good backstab weapons (did not test if backstab work with throwing daggers used in melee, though), almost on par with Celestial Fury or Staff of Rynn (acknowledged as best backstab weapons outside Staff of the Ram which you only get very late anyway)
If I made a Ken/Thief myself, I would be hesitating a lot between staves (better backstab weapons, but less damaging in normal combat), 1handed wielded daggers (covers defense, better criticals, disabling spellcasters with poison, and ranged combat), or dual wielding daggers+something else (probably scimitars for Drizzt's weapons at first, then Belm/Scarlet Ninja-To in BG2).
The last option would be very powerful, but only late game since it requires dividing your proficiencies between Daggers, Scimitars and 2-weapons-style.
EDIT : I did a bit of testing.
If you "delay" leveling up your thief levels, you can put your pips in your fighter proficiencies.
For example:
- lvl7 kensai (6 pips overall), with 4 pips in Dagger, 2 in 2-weapon-style
- dual to thief (lvl1), you get 2 pips: put 1 in Scimitar (for example), 1 in 1-weapon-style
- get easy XP (basilisks), don't level up 'til 70k XP. If you level up all at once, you recover your fighter levels and can put your 2 remaining pips (from lvl4 and lvl8 thief) wherever you want (in this case, I put them in Scimitar).
So, by BG1 cap, no proficiency point is wasted:
- 4* in your main weapon (you cannot put a 5th one unless you are at least lvl9 in one of your classes, see this thread)
- 3* in your secondary weapon
- 2* in Two-weapon-fighting (the 3rd one is not very useful anyway, it can be delayed for quite a bit)
- 1* in 1-handed-fighting (for backstabs, 19 crit is nice)
That 5th proficiency point will be in quite a while (in fact, barely after SoD cap, since you will need 504kXP for that next pip), which is a pity, but allows for earliest efficiency.
Another good combo is by dualing at lvl9:
- it means doing all BG1 as a single-class Kensai
- at 250kXP (lvl9 kensai), put that last pip in your main weapon and dual class
- dual in the same way as above, find a way to get lots of easy XP (160k) to hit lvl10
That makes 9 proficiency points to be put where you want, plus the 2 pips from lvl1 thief that have to be spent wisely so that they don't become useless.
You get better thac0, HP, one more use of Kai, and +1thac0/dmg from lvl9 kensai, and your character has regained his fighter abilities before the SoD cap.
Off course, that still doesn't beat a lvl13 dual, but it takes ages to regain abilities, and means spending all BG1+SoD, and a good part of BG2 as a single class fighter. Not quite the same experience.
also we have no clue if he is starting in bg2 or want to play the whole saga.
by the way to run a KT in soa only imho can have a sense, but to do the whole saga it can be done , but is a quite weak choice as you have to choose between an early dual, where the kensay bonuses are very low compared to the restrictions, no armor helm and braciers until 3M xp in thief, so breseker or unkitted fighter is a better choice or a dual at a higher level, that make the first 2 games harder and takes forever as the xp gain is not linear (a couple of soa quests give about the same xp as the whole bg1).
I agree, I did digress a little with the comparisons ^^ I am running a kensai (casual play with a party, elven kensai specialized in Longswords) and got a bit overenthousiastic xD
Your point about duals is also true if doing a trilogy run. Although, on my part, I tend to skip SoD often, and soloing BG1 as a Kensai is actually quite fun and powerful.
Otherwise, I agree that dualing a Kensai at lvl7 (to gain levels back in BG1) does not make much sense. Sometimes my calculations get the better of me and I forget about basic utility
This also gives two types of weapon damage, it is especially nice to have crushing damage from staff. As a kensai you won’t want to go front rank until you get the UAI ability as a thief and a staff user can attack well from behind a tank. The endgame dagger that makes you invisible sometimes also gives options for repeated backstabs. The firetooth dagger can do very high damage per round at range.
As you can GM unlike multi classes and single class rangers and paladins you actually don’t have too many pips to spare if you go 5*. As you have invested in swords I would go staff if you want to get up close and back stab sometimes and dagger if you want to sit at range more. I would probably go staff but it is close.
On the other hand, if you're already going with longswords and two-weapon fighting primary, don't go with the staff. Instead, think about what off-hand weapons you're going to pair with that long sword. Is it a speed weapon? Short swords or scimitars/ninja-tos. A defensive weapon? Axes (Axe of the Unyielding), bastard swords (Purifier), or flails (Defender of Easthaven). A ranged option (on the switch rather than the off hand)? Daggers. Or you can just pick whatever other particular weapon you're interested in. The off-hand weapon will practically never backstab, so you don't need to pick based on that.
Yes you can dual early rather than late, but by losing out on the extra half an attack at fighter level 13 you (further) weaken the case for going kensai/thief rather than multi fighter/thief. Moreover multi enables you to be half-orc which means you can start with a 19 strength, which doesn't matter in SoD/BG2 but is a significant quality-of-life boost for BG1 (yes there is a strength tome but you don't get it until late).
For those reasons I think @gorgonzola is exactly right, kensai/thief is a better choice for an SoA-only run than for a full-saga run. However this does not in any way mean kensai/thief is "weak," it is plenty strong though arguably not the strongest or most useful fighter/thief option overall.
True that! Just to elaborate:
I have played BG1 and SoD with this character and just started SoA. I dualled quite early, at lvl 9. Now Kensai9/Thief11
My abilitie scores are now quite ridiculous:
STR 19
DEX 19
CON 19
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 19
I got the following profs:
Longswords: ***** (from kensai levels)
Dual-wielding: *** (from kensai levels)
Dagger: * (from thief levels)
Scimitars/etc.: * (from thief levels)
Short Sword: * (from thief levels)
I think that's all, might be another one (that would be Katanas probably) with one pip in it from my thief levels (not at my pc at the moment).
From the posts above, I surmise investing more pips in scimitars is the best way to go, maybe putting 1 in war hammers for Crom Faer.
Indeed, given your build, I'd strongly suggest you put that pip you will get at lvl12 into scimitars, for dual-wielding whatever Longsword you have in main hand with Belm in 2nd hand or later Scarlet Ninjato.
By the way, which longswords are you using ? There are lots of them, it is probably the most versatile weapon proficiency, and you can't go wrong with that.
EDIT : might change my previous comment: do you play solo or with a party ? If solo, you might instead want to go for a blunt weapon proficiency to hit those clay golems and the like.
My current longswords aren't that epic yet, I just started BG2, I only got Angurvardal (sp? the flame longsword +1) and Varscona.
it seems to me that your choice is good.
somehow having both short sword and scimitar is redundant, as you surely want to equip long sword in the MH, but you really had not other choices without delaying leveling some thief levels as you can not put more then 1 pip as thief and hammer is not allowed.
and in every case is not bad as some short swords are worth to use for their passive effects in some battles, like the arbane for the immunity to hold, and belm is more damaging when it is not needed and SNT is even better.
now you have to make the best use of the remaining pip and imo you have 4 options, your play style should tell you which is better.
1. 2nd pip in dagger for 1/2 apr more ranged.
2. pip in katana (celestial fury), but as OH weapon it will hit only 1 time/round, so will stun much more enemies then when is used MH and as MH is far better to use the weapon you are GM into i would not go for it. because a +1 apr weapon or crom and 25 str seem to me better.
3. pip in staff to pull out mega stabs with the staff of the ram, that you can get quite early in soa if you can go trough some levels of WK and beat the dragon. you don't need the upgraded version to justify the choice, the +10dmg from the +4 one multiplied is already 50 more granted damages.
4. pip in hammer for crom. late game your thac0 will be sub optimal as thieves top it at 10, what can keep you competitive is GM and a good str bonus, crom give +7 thac0, and the +14 dmg on every attack make somehow for the lost apr weapon.
it is also true that with the best belt and SNT OH you loose only part of the str bonus from crom.
so at the end i would go for option 1 if you use ranged tactics often and option 3 if you stab often.
EDIT: i was ninjaed by 2 posts.
indeed a second pip in scimitar is also an option. so now you have 3 choices.
about the long swords i agree that are the most versatile, i suggest you to collect the better ones and use the one that best suit the particular battle. you will have one that make you immune to fear and give double damage against dragons, one really powerful against undeads and on and over, up to the really good ones you will find later. the upgraded angurvadal make you immune to level drain, blackrazor is crazy strong, the answerer lower enemy ac and mr and on and over...
the only thing i am sure of is that you are going to have a lot of fun...
The Burning Earth, Angurvadal is the best long sword in BG2 !
Guess I'll take the 2nd scimitar pip at lvl 12 and later invest some in warhammers for late game thac0 goodness. I'm actually neither a backstabber nor a ranged player. Just a (secondary) DPS dealer.
Edit: just to be clear: I just play EE/no mods
https://pihwiki.bgforge.net/Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts
i'm playing a kensai/thief too, but good. Let's fight for supremacy!
probably being in the situation of the OP i would equip angurvadal in most of the situations, but ready to switch to an other sword as soon as the particular situation request it.
to open a fight with a massive stab that kill a mage (if needed breached a split second before by your mage) or take away lets say 80-100hp from a strong fighter is one of the strong tactics a thief can pull out.
i love to stab, and i clear whole dungeons with my thief only, but even using a KT as flanker to open the battle with a good stab is really a rewarding habit
EDIT: one other advantage of having a pip in staves is that with UAI you will be allowed to use the staff of the magi, dispell on hit is crazy strong and works also trough stoneskin. also your mage can use it, but has he the thac0 to actually hit? is wise to send him near the enemies? way better if a KT do the trick...
@Daevelon already corrected the name of your flame longsword (Burning Earth), which looks cool but is not that good.
For early and good longswords, there are two very nice ones:
- Blade of roses+3 (2d4 base damage instead of 1d8, better average damage), available for purchase very early in the slums district once a relatively easy quest is done ;
- Namarra +2 (actually does 1d8 +4 instead of 1d8+2 damage), for even better average backstabs, plus has a nice special ability (silence 15' radius, the bane of spellcasters), also easily obtainable from Chapter 2.
At some point you'll want to to grab an awesome longsword in the Gate district, very very good against undead (you do have to fight a powerful undead beforehand though to get it).
And there are many more, for almost every situation.
EDIT : ah, I see you don't fancy backstabs. It's a shame, they allow for good strategical relief. But these weapons are good anyway, and will make a good addition to your arsenal (Namarra more so I guess)
Backstab is great with kensai characters, let's remember the bonus damage from the kit is multiplied!
And "Kai" allows for maximum backstab damage. You're sure to chunk one enemy of your choice at the start of any fight.
EDIT : @Dordledum , just so you know, your 19STR kensai(9)/thief (11) under Kai will do:
[(8+4 (Namarra) + 3 (kensai) + 5 (pips))x4]+7 (str) = 87 damage on a backstab, 107 damage once you get x5 backstabs (lvl13).
so, while with even number of pips the SoTR is always at advantage for this particular build maybe to spend a pip on it is not worth, if not to use the staff of the magi, that can not stab, but is really useful to dispell the enemies. SoTM is also the tool to disappear after the stab so the enemies focus on your tanks, but there is no need to spend pips for that, to equip it is enough, but is good to know it.
is also worth to tell to someone that is a novice back stabber that not all the enemies can be stabbed, dragons, some other monsters and some bosses are immune, still it is really strong and useful in many many battles.
- golems
- oozes/jellies (not sure though, I vaguely remember a thief landing a backstab on some jellies in a recent run, I was surprised, but did not pursue the research)
- beholders
- dragons
I think demons and those wraithes that can see through invisiblity are immune to backstab too. Or maybe it is just that since they see through invisibility, you cannot actually land a backstab (the same goes for kuo toa, liches, and some endgame bosses).
Although for liches and wandering horrors (if i got the name right), protection from undead could bypass their ability to see through invisibility and allow for backstabs.
Or just wearing the Cloak of Non-detection; it's available from the very first beginning of SoA
the cloak is indeed nice for a stealthed thief/ranger, since the cloak is non-dispellable (the spell is crappy though, since any invisibility purge spell also dispels Non Detection).
But it does not prevent monsters who can see through invisibility to spot you.
Now, I'm not sure how Sanctuary falls into that "see through invisibility" stuff. If it uses a different OPcode, then it might just be possible to backstab demons, kuotoans and the like who can see through invisibility but not through sanctuary. Unless they also are immune to backstabs, on top of their invisibility-immunity.
When the thief reaches high levels and can use the assassination HLA it is not effective against foe immune to stab, but very powerful in other situations, . Dw firetooth and snt and improved haste up to 10 stabs in a round are possible, without even hiding.
Bait a bunch of fighters, monks or drows with some summon and kill them on in no time, before they even react.
my current cleric/thief solo insane poverty no reload run definitely disagrees with you. Sanctuary allows for backstabs.