Etiquette for stepping on other modders' toes?
polymorphedsquirrel
Member Posts: 114
I am a noob to the modder scene, so please be understanding.
I was wondering about the proper protocol for modifying content introduced by other mods. To be clear, I do not mean releasing a fork of a whole mod, or substantial alterations, but rather a mod which patches content of other mods along with original game files.
The basic cases I have is a portrait pack changing the portraits for mod NPCs, or a arms&armour rework updating items from mods to be in line with the new versions of basic items (such as changing damages on swords, etc). I would love for example to see shs soundsets get subtitles to the point of doing most of the work and offering to shs, but if I can't distribute them (without the orignal sounsets theselves) as a separate mod until it comes to pass (orif it doesn't), my motivation evaporates.
A muddier one would be toning down the power of some items/spells: for example rewards from quest mods which I like, but find too powerful (even if only slightly), especially in the context of the actual quest. Unfortunately - for my taste - this is the vast majority of fan content.
A separate dillema is 'stealing' ideas (not the actual code). There are many competing mods for doing basically the same, but with a slight twist or different stats. Most common are numerous tweaks components for casting/thieving in armour, but there are also a couple of more unique ideas. I would of corse gladly credit my predecesors, although I am not even sure about the wording: most of what I know and put in I learned by reviwing other mods and I certainly don't want to create an impression that original code is involved and any bugs or quirks may be possibly attributed to the author of that mod.
If a modder is active, I can of course contact them and try to work something out. What however if they are not, or simply taking a break, or do not wish to see competition? I do not want to be 'that guy' who makes their own version of every mod they personally use, but a systemic arms and armour revision covers a lot of ground.
I was wondering about the proper protocol for modifying content introduced by other mods. To be clear, I do not mean releasing a fork of a whole mod, or substantial alterations, but rather a mod which patches content of other mods along with original game files.
The basic cases I have is a portrait pack changing the portraits for mod NPCs, or a arms&armour rework updating items from mods to be in line with the new versions of basic items (such as changing damages on swords, etc). I would love for example to see shs soundsets get subtitles to the point of doing most of the work and offering to shs, but if I can't distribute them (without the orignal sounsets theselves) as a separate mod until it comes to pass (orif it doesn't), my motivation evaporates.
A muddier one would be toning down the power of some items/spells: for example rewards from quest mods which I like, but find too powerful (even if only slightly), especially in the context of the actual quest. Unfortunately - for my taste - this is the vast majority of fan content.
A separate dillema is 'stealing' ideas (not the actual code). There are many competing mods for doing basically the same, but with a slight twist or different stats. Most common are numerous tweaks components for casting/thieving in armour, but there are also a couple of more unique ideas. I would of corse gladly credit my predecesors, although I am not even sure about the wording: most of what I know and put in I learned by reviwing other mods and I certainly don't want to create an impression that original code is involved and any bugs or quirks may be possibly attributed to the author of that mod.
If a modder is active, I can of course contact them and try to work something out. What however if they are not, or simply taking a break, or do not wish to see competition? I do not want to be 'that guy' who makes their own version of every mod they personally use, but a systemic arms and armour revision covers a lot of ground.
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In the most offending case, it is simply about completeness. If I perform large edits on an item, I would like them to bring it exactly to my vision, without 'strongly recommending' in the readme installation of tweak X from mod M. Again, I would start with contacting the author, if possible, and offering full/partial credits for the functionality, depending on how close it would fall to the original. Sometimes straight adaptation with litte tweaks would be sufficient from my point of view; in case that fails though, I would like to be able to make my own version. I do nt give concrete examp'es examples here because I wish to contact the authos first.
As you are present here I may illustrate it on another case, far in my pipeline: I used your npc kits mod, and later the 'customized npc levelling' of SCS. I found however that being able to change anyone into any class during gameplay breaks my immersion and detracts from the feeling that NPCs are independent ccharacters, rather than player created as in IWD. Level 1 NPCs did a lot of work, but is a huge pain to reinstall; hence an idea for a version which takes the stats from a configuration file and applies the changes withot further input, making Imoen an Adventurer and Xan a F/M for all games, at least until I wish to change it.
Others wrote a note in their NPC's forum that any unauthorized crossmod is welcome.
"Stealing" ideas is an interesting topic. I would say, if it is something that you could have thought of yourself later, then making an own mod with the "same" topic is ok if it is clear that your mod has a different take on the topic.
For example: there are two mods that let you skip Irenicus' Dungeon. But the newer one is so very different to the first one that noone would ever accuse @argent77 of having "stolen" that idea. Or if someone else wants to write an Ajantis BGII mod with their own take on his personality and story - of course. Ajantis is a BioWare character.
But writing for example another mod NPC of the same name and class like, say, berelinde's Gavin - would be definitely a stolen idea.
Nerfing tweaks for mods is an interesting idea, actually. There were balancing packs for e.g. NTotSC and DSotSC (now integrated into the most current packages). They were created after some time, after the community agreed that the items and enemies in the original versions were too overpowered. I don't think they would have been welcome while the mods were still new, also because back then overpowered items were kind of "in". This is only my opinion, though.
My take on this:
-If you alter another mod to address an out-of-balance in some sort compared to either the original game (nerfing of overpowered items to game's standard) or your mod (your mod changes the mage system to make every mage kitted - or whatever), then offering a component that tweaks other mods is ok in principle (after having tried to reach out to the author etcpp see below).
In here also go portrait changes - if you offer a portrait pack that makes changes to (almost) all NPCs in the game. In this case I wouldn't even expect to be asked, for example artastrophe's portrait packs that give new portraits to literally everyone in the game.
-If your crossmod tweak just changes another mod to your liking, then it is a much more difficult situation.
I do not agree to @subtledoctor 's take that modders should accept any changes to their work (with the argument of hypocrisy because modders are changing the original devs' work). I admit that I don't have a valid argument against it other than modifications are - per design - a change to the original devs' work, so arguing with "but you are doing this to other people's work, too" is kind of mute, because I can't say "then I won't" because then there wouldn't be any modifications at all. I do think, though, that one has a different take on this depending on the kind of mods one does. I tell well thought-out stories in mine, so I am a bit more sensitive to unauthorized changes. Still I think that it is possible in principle, but getting there without stepping on any toes is exactly what this thread is about:
So, what to do if you have changes to one specific mod you want to share with the public. This would be my take on it: (This goes with the assumption that your idea is honest and respects the other mod, not crossmod content to hammer the other into your personal taste or as a mean to let your own mods shine. Not making assumptions, just talking out of bad experience.)
-Always try to contact the author or mod maintainer first. Also very simple reason: if you have ideas such that you think the mod's content/story should be changed this way, then these changes would be best included into the original package. (And sometimes, the author is ready to listen.)
-If you don't get a reply after an appropriate amount of time, then post in the mod's official home about your idea.
-If you get positive feedback (others think it's a good idea, too) and still no answer from the mod author, publish your crossmod tweaks and give a link in the official mod's home.
-And: in case there is negative feedback, be ready to take your crossmod tweaks down. Because if you weren't, then there would be no point in asking in the first place.
I think I need to add to my statement above: I knew modder who even called adding a (technical necessary) transition line for an interjection (where the original game cre has the last line so all actions are performed by them as in the original and it's not the NPC suddenly disappears/turning hostile etc. instead) in a collaboration project with several NPCs an unauthorized change to their work.
If someone would like to make changes to one of my mods I would just, well, be happy if they'd contact me first. If I would not agree (i.e. would not integrate them into the original package), but the changes are well thought-out and not ridiculing in any way, I do not think I would go on a flame war against it. It might even be I'd point players with a different opinion their way.
But, one thing is really important to me: that the player knows about the changes and that any crossmod content is *not* being taken as my original content.
That is one of the reasons why I am a little bit allergic to crossmod content that gets published without ever even trying to talk to me. The player who used an automated installer to set up a megamod install sees out-of-character dialogues of my NPC and thinks it's my mod's content.
Also @subtledoctor I didn't mean to imply it's your absolute opinion. I'm ESL so I guess I could have chosen better words for referring to your remarks. And I totally agree that it's* hypocrisy.
*EDIT 2: I mean writing modifications but being protective about them.