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Does a Thief gain the proficiency benefits that being part fighter gave him?

I want to make a Kensai/Thief with 5 pips in katana, the reason I ask this question is because a vanilla thief can only become proficient not grandmaster but if I make him a grandmaster at katanas will the thief be able to make full use of those once I get past the kensai's previous level.

Comments

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,828
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    2088432gorgonzola
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    Thanks for letting me know... btw can you backstab with two weapon style
    ?

  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,225
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

    Just how it works, I'm afraid. Two proficiency points gets the job done just fine, for what it's worth.

    JuliusBorisov
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    Chronicler wrote: »
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

    Just how it works, I'm afraid. Two proficiency points gets the job done just fine, for what it's worth.

    But I am going to be a Kensai/Vanilla thief not a swash buckler I'll only get one.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,436
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

    You can use mods if you want to alter that (or change the look-up table directly). The rationale behind the limitation is game balance (or, if you want an RP rationale, the time taken to keep up skills in your other class means you are not able to progress so far with your fighting abilities), but obviously you're free to make your own decisions about how to play the game.

    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolaStummvonBordwehrAerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,225
    2088432 wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

    Just how it works, I'm afraid. Two proficiency points gets the job done just fine, for what it's worth.

    But I am going to be a Kensai/Vanilla thief not a swash buckler I'll only get one.

    No, as a dual class you get the full 5. Multiclasses get 2, Dual Classes get 5.

    When you first switch to thief, there will be a period where you have no fighter levels. You're just a low level thief. During this period you only get 1, because that's how thieves do. Once your thief level surpasses your fighter levels though, you will regain your fighter levels. At this point you get back any proficiencies you had as a fighter and can continue to level weapons to grandmastery going forward.

    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 564
    edited February 21
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    Thanks for letting me know... btw can you backstab with two weapon style
    ?

    About backstabs:
    - you can backstab with any melee weapon from the thief pool (longsword, shortsword, katana, scimitar/wakizashi/ninjato, dagger, club, quarterstaff). Note that even under these weapon categories, you can not backstab with weapons that were "designed" for a specific class other than thieves (only 2 weapons in BG2 fit this category IIRC, a Mage staff and a Monk ninjato, with which you can't backstab).
    - only your first attack is a backstab, even if you have 10 attacks per round, since your first attack breaks stealth/invisibility.
    - unless some weird combination of non-integer attacks per round, haste, and lots of variables during a fight (providing you find a way to become invisible again mid-fight), your first attack in a round will always be your main hand, and not the offhand.

    So, yes you can backstab with 2WF style, but only the first attack from your main weapon will be a sneak attack.

    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    edited February 22
    Grond0 wrote: »
    The rationale behind the limitation is game balance (or, if you want an RP rationale, the time taken to keep up skills in your other class means you are not able to progress so far with your fighting abilities
    i agree with the balance rationale, not with he rp one.
    if being a multi my FM or FT can not progress with his fighting abilities how he can at lev cap reach lev 24 fighter.
    the fact that a lev 24 fighter (multi) can not become grand master, while a lev 9 (single class or dual class) one can, strikes against RP.
    and also the fact that a dual, that actually completely stop to develop his fighter class, his fighting ability, can become GM after completing the dual, using mage, druid, cleric or thief pips is even worst RP wise.

    monico wrote: »
    - only your first attack is a backstab, even if you have 10 attacks per round, since your first attack breaks stealth/invisibility.
    there are actually at least 3 ways for a thief hasted and or dw/using speed weapons and for a FT to get multiple backstabs in the same round.
    1. stab, drink an invisibility potion or use an invisibility item and stab again.
    2. stab, have a mage cast on you invisibility and stab again. 1 and 2 can be combined together.
    3. with uai or if with a fmt cast a mislead, it re applies the invisibility every time you attack so you can have multiple stabs/round as long as you face the back of the enemies. without consuming potions, without having your mage using his round to set you invisible (but if the mage at high levels is using rov and is under ia he actually can make you invisible many times/round without affecting much his regular spell casting), at the cost of a mislead scroll, not even that for fmt.

    i find the mislead stabs too overpowered and i see mislead as a spell designed for mages, not for those exploits, but other players like to do it, and in some solo runs is actually very useful.

    StummvonBordwehr2088432Aerakar
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    Grond0 wrote: »
    2088432 wrote: »
    One note about what @monico replied - it's working with dual, but a multi-class FT still gets only 2 pips to pick in each proficiency.

    And there's nothing I can do about that? I find that terrible.

    You can use mods if you want to alter that (or change the look-up table directly). The rationale behind the limitation is game balance (or, if you want an RP rationale, the time taken to keep up skills in your other class means you are not able to progress so far with your fighting abilities), but obviously you're free to make your own decisions about how to play the game.

    Can you tell me where I can get such a mod? :(

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 884
    @2088432
    The tweaks anthology has a tweak that allows multi class fighters to reach GM.
    https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/tweaks/tweaks/

    The mod has tons of changes you may like as well, and it’s very stable and safe to install. I love the mod, and will suggest that you take your time when reading the “read me“. Cause the mod opens up for a myriad of changes you might like as well.

    gorgonzolaAerakar
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    @2088432
    The tweaks anthology has a tweak that allows multi-class fighters to reach GM.
    https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/tweaks/tweaks/

    The mod has tons of changes you may like as well, and it’s very stable and safe to install. I love the mod, and will suggest that you take your time when reading the “read me“. Cause the mod opens up for a myriad of changes you might like as well.

    How do I install that to the point it works? It sounds really cool but it doesn't work when I simply download it.

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 884
    2088432 wrote: »
    @2088432
    The tweaks anthology has a tweak that allows multi-class fighters to reach GM.
    https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/tweaks/tweaks/

    The mod has tons of changes you may like as well, and it’s very stable and safe to install. I love the mod, and will suggest that you take your time when reading the “read me“. Cause the mod opens up for a myriad of changes you might like as well.

    How do I install that to the point it works? It sounds really cool but it doesn't work when I simply download it.

    Once down loaded into to your game files (and extracted), just press the setup file (it’s an executable file).

    When activated the program will begin its installation. You will be guided through its install, and can skip or install different parts - it takes a while since there are so many options. Hope it works

    Otherwise this tutorial might help you:

    Grond0monicogorgonzola
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    2088432 wrote: »
    @2088432
    The tweaks anthology has a tweak that allows multi-class fighters to reach GM.
    https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/tweaks/tweaks/

    The mod has tons of changes you may like as well, and it’s very stable and safe to install. I love the mod, and will suggest that you take your time when reading the “read me“. Cause the mod opens up for a myriad of changes you might like as well.

    How do I install that to the point it works? It sounds really cool but it doesn't work when I simply download it.

    Once down loaded into to your game files (and extracted), just press the setup file (it’s an executable file).

    When activated the program will begin its installation. You will be guided through its install, and can skip or install different parts - it takes a while since there are so many options. Hope it works

    Otherwise this tutorial might help you:

    I get an error (which I attached9cmwkmr3ojoy.jpg
    ) when I try doing that where do I download the program into exactly (I'm assuming the .exe version was the one I was meant to download.

  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    This is the error I get when I download cdtweaks-v9.exe into the folder that contains Baldur.exe

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,436
    Run the mod setup file in whatever location your game exe is. From your screenshot it looks like you're trying to install to a vanilla game rather than BG2EE. If that's so then you should probably check that the version of the mod you've got does support that, rather than being specific to the EE.

    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • 20884322088432 Member Posts: 179
    edited March 1
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Run the mod setup file in whatever location your game exe is. From your screenshot it looks like you're trying to install to a vanilla game rather than BG2EE. If that's so then you should probably check that the version of the mod you've got does support that, rather than being specific to the EE.

    Oh, but I want it to be EE, I thought that's what I was doing, how do I get it to be for EE? (also, was I correct in assuming I should choose the .exe file to download and not the .zips?

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,436
    If you've used the standard installation option, your EE game should be somewhere like
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Baldur's Gate II Enhanced Edition\Data\00783
    check that has the game exe in.

    I think the cdtweaks mod has a self-extracting archive, so you can copy that into your game folder and then double-click on it to extract a Weidu installer (if you have not already done that) in addition to the mod setup file and cdtweaks folder. Then just double-click on the setup file to install the mod.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 934
    edited March 1
    If you're looking to increase your melee DPS through cheats, why not just raise your strength directly? That would be a lot faster (though the tweak package does have a lot of other options you might enjoy using).

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    @jsaving i don't see GM for multi classes as a cheat, i see it more as a different game setting.
    there are reasons for allowing it that are as good as the ones to deny it. and is surely more logical, following the thinking that the multi class has less time to train in the fighter class so he can attain perfection in it, that the multi gets it, slower as he level up slower then a single class, then a dual class that get it after the dual, when he is totally focused on the other class, let's say mage, completely stopping to train the fighter class.
    thing that is perfectly allowed in the vanilla settings.

    so a player can decide to play on alternate settings and this is very different then let's say cheat in a 25 str that has a very little logic reason behind.

    at now i am not using gm for multi, but i did it in the past and i never felt guilty for it.
    in the past i had also downloaded and used an helm that grants to who use it 25 str, and as soon as i realized how broken it was, every toon of the party using it become automatically the better dps dealer and the one that got more kills in the chapter, i stopped to use it immediately.

    we are talking of a not competitive single player game, or multiplayer where all the players are in the same team and can agree what to allow and what to not allow. so every choice is fine, even giving to all the party 25 in every stat, but there is a difference between allowing not legit stats and disagreeing with a developer decision about gm that has at least some logic flaws as it is implemented.

    and in the original gm did not give in bg2 the +1/2 apr, in EE it does, are all the EE players cheating more then the ones that in the original modded it to give the apr increase like i did (and do as i play both the versions of the game)?

    StummvonBordwehrmonico
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 934
    I agree completely that if every other class in the game grants its full benefits to multiclassed characters, it makes no logical/RP sense to say that for fighters and fighters only you get less because your attention is divided.

    However it should be pointed out that restricting fighter/X multiclasses to two pips was a balance decision made by the devs during alpha because fighter/X characters were so much stronger than everybody else. So yes, when you as a player decide you want the extra power anyway then I would consider that a cheat, even though RP-wise it might make sense.

    That said fighter/X multiclasses are still stronger than everybody else even when they are limited to two pips, so making them even stronger by allowing five pips doesn't do much more damage to game balance than is already being done by the not-remotely-balanced BG/BG2 ruleset.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621
    edited March 3
    i would say that sorcerer, wild mage and the dual fighter->mage are way stronger then every pure class or kitted fighter or every multi class but CM, but this opinion is very related to my play style.
    at least in vanilla not LoB.

    and if we talk of balance i think that the original soa, before the bonus merchants and tob was introduced, had the best balance.
    no HLA, no RoV and no +1/2 apr for GM gave a chance to be competitive to the divine casters and the rogues that now have the spike only situationally, against undeads, against creatures not immune to back stab and in situations where is possible to use the traps.
    what the divine casters and rogues got from the hlas pales if compared to hardiness, GWW, and improved alacrity with RoV.

    the original balance has been altered many times, first with the introduction of the bonus merchants, then with tob and the hla, and finally giving to GM the +1/2 apr.

    the balance is not something set in stone, is something very relative, that has changed with the changes in the game and probably had never existed at all.

    and each class is powerful, but only as powerful as the player is able to use it.
    in my way to play a thief or mage is much powerful then a fighter because i like to play them, and neera is the most powerful npc i can think about, followed by aerie.
    korgan, misnc and keldorn are way back in the power rank.
    for an other player the fighters can rule, because he is better then me in using them or maybe worst then me in using the casters.

    to tell that fighter/X multiclasses are stronger than everybody else is to tell a truth that is only true for some players.

    monico
  • iosfrustrationiosfrustration Member Posts: 136
    I’m not sure why the devs decided to agonise over that extra 1/2 APR. of all the glaring balance issues in the game they chose to focus on this one?

    It’s like putting a smoke detector in hell

    So yes, from an RP perspective I always feel pretty good about over-riding this badly thought out “balance” hack. Mod GM and APR back to proper D&D rules, and play the game as it was intended.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,621

    So yes, from an RP perspective I always feel pretty good about over-riding this badly thought out “balance” hack. Mod GM and APR back to proper D&D rules, and play the game as it was intended.
    with the original not EE game i often did it, and i used also to mod the spell tables to proper D&D rules, and it was really interesting.
    bards with spells beyond lev 6, mages with more spells and jaheira that, after waiting ages to get her first lev 7 spell start to get them one by one, not all them at once like in vanilla.

    i felt it an interesting way to play the game, but not a more balanced one, because no matter how we try to play a crpg as it is a pnp game it is not.
    many spells are implemented in a different way, there is an engine to exploit, not a human dm that you can maybe convince that what you do has some reason and on and over.

    i felt that all the classes but the druids using more D&Dish rules (ease of use mod) but the druids become much powerful, and druid is not exactly the most powerful class already, so it was fun but probably less balanced then vanilla.
    but perfect for who is using difficulty mods that completely unbalance the strengths of the party and the ones of the enemies, that make you find liches and demons the 2nd or 3rd quest of chap 2, after fighting against a fallen deva in chap 1.

    iosfrustrationmonico2088432
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